User: Thorsten B, Welding/Braizing TR era

[Max Wünsche]

I agree with your opening line about this not being a risk free hobby, however according to you we should allow fake crap to be marketed as original on E-Stand and just because someone buys it and doesnt complain or have a clue as to the crap they just bought - then it should be ok...?

I understand that the Moderators cannot police the E-Stand 24-7 given that so much is being listed, although I get the feeling there is a shadow group on the WAF that are all in some way self-serving **** and couldnt give a toss if others are burned. I think anyone launching a so-called crusade as you call it to try and out known crap peddlers in an attempt to preserve the credibility / integritiy of the WAF is alright in my eyes.

There is no way to collect this material without any risk and I don't think anyone could ever create any selling venue that would eliminate all risk. I see items on there every day that are questionable to me but if someone else wants them and feels comfortable, fine. We can build a consensus on any given item but that does not constitute proof that it is or is not real and on some items authenticity is subjective and may come down to a gut feeling. I believe that the meaning of the E-Stand is to provide a venue for collector to collector sales, there is no vetting process for items listed there. The crusade launched in response to the sale of this candle holder is baffling to me.

[PlaceOfBayonets]

This is my last post on this thread. Just a suggestion. If you see something on the E stand that does not look right open a discussion on it. Ask a mod to post it on the sales thread.

Problems solved...

W.

[CWP]

I suppose the buyer should return the item, the seller should provide a refund and then list the item on the Bazaar at the same price, then the buyer can buy it again, the seller can re-ship, and then everything would be OK? What can the seller possibly do to make this situation any more right than it already is with a satisfied buyer who has nothing but kind words about the customer service from the seller? Honestly, I just don't get this at all. The seller in question here deals in many items that are difficult to date and for which authenticity judgements may be more subjective then absolute. Buyers of this material likely are aware of this and need to be able to make up their own minds about these often rather esoteric artifacts that in many cases have never been extensively studied as with helmets or badges. I haven't seen any evidence that the seller does not have a good faith reason to believe that the items he offers are from the Third Reich. No collector can know everything about everything and even the best dealers can make a mistake. It is the customer service when a mistake is made that seperates the honest dealer from the crook. Nobody can prove absolutely when this candleholder was made, if it was repaired, etc. There is a satisfied customer who was happy with his purchase. And this deal spawns multiple threads that last for pages? This borders on the absurd, here.

[Thorsten B.]

Dirk,

Thank you very much for clarification - end of this cheap soap-opera now.

[mrec27777]

I suppose the buyer should return the item, the seller should provide a refund and then list the item on the Bazaar at the same price, then the buyer can buy it again, the seller can re-ship, and then everything would be OK? What can the seller possibly do to make this situation any more right than it already is with a satisfied buyer who has nothing but kind words about the customer service from the seller? Honestly, I just don't get this at all. The seller in question here deals in many items that are difficult to date and for which authenticity judgements may be more subjective then absolute. Buyers of this material likely are aware of this and need to be able to make up their own minds about these often rather esoteric artifacts that in many cases have never been extensively studied as with helmets or badges. I haven't seen any evidence that the seller does not have a good faith reason to believe that the items he offers are from the Third Reich. No collector can know everything about everything and even the best dealers can make a mistake. It is the customer service when a mistake is made that seperates the honest dealer from the crook. Nobody can prove absolutely when this candleholder was made, if it was repaired, etc. There is a satisfied customer who was happy with his purchase. And this deal spawns multiple threads that last for pages? This borders on the absurd, here.

how do you know there is a satisfied customer ?do you know him/her?,or are you just "assuming"he/she is satisfied ...the ONLY way to acknowledge this is to hear from the buyer ..not your assumption ...

[mrec27777]

how do you know there is a satisfied customer ?do you know him/her?,or are you just "assuming"he/she is satisfied ...the ONLY way to acknowledge this is to hear from the buyer ..not your assumption ...

ZAM does not apper to be 100 % satisfied ...

[Michael Fay]

This is my last post on this thread. Just a suggestion. If you see something on the E stand that does not look right open a discussion on it. Ask a mod to post it on the sales thread.

Problems solved...

W.

Problem not solved

This protocol was followed by another WAF member,
and the seller/dealer named Thorsten refused to respond in any fashion. Somthing, as far as I am aware that never happened ever in the history of WAF till that moment.
The general practice was for the seller to also contribute to the thread and address the issues-or at least defend their item.
This is a terrible precedent and thus , this thread ,you find so horrible, was started by other WAF members (than myself ) to address this problem.

[Der Texaner]

and even the best dealers can make a mistake

And it appears they can make the items they sell too.

[Arran]

As far as I'm concerned, whenever a discussion on an E-stand item is opened, the appropriate moderator should be responsible for actually moderating that thread, and assess what is being put forward, and make the decision to terminate the sales thread or not, based on their judgement of the evidence put forward. I'm sorry if this is more policing than the moderators would like, but what other option is there?

[Michael Fay]

And the rule is not really a rule because NO ONE can say what is real or not, we can believe, nothing more. my 2 Reichpfennig!

Best regards
Dirk

Hello Dirk,
by your own logic , anyone else can also disbelieve. And until further notice,we can voice such belief or disbelief.

It seems many who dont like the disbelievers want them to not voice their disbelief.

So it seems those who "believe" are demanding their opinion prevail.
Which would then destroy the ability to "believe it is real" or "disbelieve it is real" and merely believe it is real as the only option allowed.

[besslein]

kindergarten

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Yes it is long, boring, a circus, a soap opera, baffling, kindergarten etc

Zam,

Hi, I am glad you are happy with the transaction and got good value for money on a functilonal item, I, like you am happier with the more conventional stuff and I assume you are as knowegable as me in mig/tig welding? I think you bought the item based on description? You are perhaps happy with this quirky item and don't see the fuss but had you been sold a questionable set of web Y-straps I bet you would be all over it like a rash?

Dave G/Dmv,

I did ask for a ruling on the other thread a while ago, one mod even stated all is 'not ok', which was about the limit of his authority or duty!

William,

I am not ignoring others, if you look on here you could do this for the rest of your life as a full time job! A bit like the mods

It is just a case that stuck out because experts outside of the hobby had information and oppinions based on their life skills, the welders?

I see there are other people that know this aspect of the hobby casting doubt while most that are for the item know as much as me about it or will they share the facts they have that make this thread irrellevant?

Jock

[Dave Ryerson]

Problem not solved

This protocol was followed by another WAF member,
and the seller/dealer named Thorsten refused to respond in any fashion. Somthing, as far as I am aware that never happened ever in the history of WAF till that moment.
The general practice was for the seller to also contribute to the thread and address the issues-or at least defend their item.
This is a terrible precedent and thus , this thread ,you find so horrible, was started by other WAF members (than myself ) to address this problem.

Nor will the problem ever be solved Michael,,,
too much apathy in the hobby

[mrec27777]

And, who can say if a collector item is 100% period? Weitze, Wittmann, Steagemeier?

i can tell if it's a period weld/fusion ,or whether it's modern day weld ....need good pics ..

[Dave Ryerson]

We need Thorsten to put down the torch and carving tools and get us some good photos