OKay what ever you want to define the design IMO it is it has no relation to the Charlemagne formation.
Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com
Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com
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I agree. IIRC, the 'SS Map' of Feb 45 suggests a connection to Denmark (I'm away from home just now so can't easily check). Charlemagne may eventually have received the 'Jeanne d'Arc' tab if the war had continued for a few more years...Originally posted by Rene Chavez View PostComment
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Hi,
mislabelled danish (produced but not delivered to the troops) collar tab from Dachau stock :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=837799
I contacted the seller about that, but so far the error is still there.
Last similar Kragenspiegel sold on HH this summer was again mislabelled but was changed at the last minute due to an email i send to them.
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VinceComment
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I'm pretty sure that the only specifically French insignia produced by/for the W-SS were the Bevo pattern cuff-title and the 'Dachau' pattern shield. The 'sword and laurels' patch exists as a drawing only as far as I know. The closed sunwheel was intended for one of the Scandinavian-based units but probably wasn't issued, hence why it is relatively common.Comment
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I have a hard time disputing the 1945 SS diary. This is the only genuine wartime illustration of the insignia and I have a hard time believing that the illustrator incorrectly labeled this insignia. Obviously, designs were being developed for foreign units and we must remember that no one told any German political or military authority that the war would be over on May 8, 1945. The leaders in Germany, in 1944, believed that the war would continue beyond the the year 1945 and the expansion of volunteers would have been necessary for the continuing war effort.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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Hi,
the danish calendar has the similar flaw than the german one.
Both content were approved as of November 15, 1944.
The problem is that :
1) the so called celtic cross is a well famous insigna of the DNSAP, and has no link with french history (for example it was not used by the Bezen Perrot, the Sipo-SD unit created in Brittany). Also it is doubtful so see the same collar tab for the norvegian and the danish volunteers... Those countries are well known for their antagonism.
2) the whole history of the "Joan Of Arc sword" Kragenspiegel is still a bit mysterious :
- it is currently not known if the collar tab was proposed by Darnand and his staff (i think it was) during the few meetings in fall 1944. I still need to find more reports on this one. I really doubt that Himmler, the SS-Hauptamt or the Germanische Leitstelle had anything to propose.
- the original report passed to the french military service in February 1945 (showing a visual Kragenspiegel designed from oral testimonies - not visual ones) is taken from various sources, including some of the VII. US Army.
So it could be interesting to find them.
All in all, no one at the "Charlemagne", including the german inspection, heard of both collar tabs (from September 1944 to May 1945).
And about the cufftitle, this is not known if the copies that were removed from the pioneer company at its arrival in Wildflecken were made 1) only for the pioneer members (i tend to think it was the case, like for some homemade production of the HJ cufftitle) or 2) for the whole division.
And again, no one ever saw any of those cufftitles before or after.
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VinceComment
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You have to keep in mind, that when it comes to the antagonism between Danes and Norwegians, the Nordland collar tab (sunwheel swastika) was to be worn in combination with the sleeve shield. Danish respectively the Norwegian.Comment
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Lots of significant experts and dealers called this tab as Charlemagne:
Bill Shea from rupturedduck:
http://www.therupturedduck.com/C-422...gne-C-422a.htm
John Telesmanich from germanwarbooty:
http://www.germanwarbooty.com/item-s...ss%20ss712.htm
Kris Anderson from oakleaf:
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/images/0911ss9-1.jpg
emedals:
http://www.emedals.com/europe/german...llar-tab-44953
Hermann Historica...etcComment
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And most important of all: the SS said it was for Charlemagne!Comment
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I agree with Rene.Originally posted by Rene Chavez View Post
Just have a look on the European Waffen-SS Map depicted on his website and issued by Amtsgruppe B of the Main Office on 1 February 1945, designed by Alex Dolezalek.
https://axis101.bizland.com/GermanInsignias1.htmComment
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Hi,
since when argument of authority = truth ?
No offense to all those people, but the only argument they have is the german-danish calendars.
When you check facts and testimonies, you can find various infos about the Joan Of Arc sword Kragenspiegel, and nothing about this non-sense celtic cross-DNSAP insigna.
Krukenberg was informed of the planned Joan Of Arc sword design as he took part to some of the meeting of late 1944 when the Milice Francaise and Darnand were planning to enlist part of their troops.
This means that since October-November 1944, the various meetings with Himmler himself who confirmed the Joan Of Sword sword Kragenspiegel (various documents exist about that).
It also just ridiculous to think that the common insigna of the DNSAP will be given from out of nowhere to the french SS volunteers !
This is like having the Totenkopf given to - for example - the Wallonie, or the Najional Samling insigna given to an Hungarian SS division... Non-sense.
It is true that the SS was used to mess up things, for example the "Charlemagne" name was given first to the future "Frunsberg", then to the french SS Standarte that never was, then one year later to the french brigade then division... Same as for the projected name of the french SS Standarte that could have been named "Gobineau". Again all is taken from SS-Hauptamt reports and french trials.
Oh and recently the biggest scandal on the SS collecting market saw "specialists" promoting an ultra fake "Champagne" painted decal...Originally posted by JLS1963 View Post
Same for the Croix de Guerre Legionnaire, with various "specialists" that are still promoting the Delande fake (nota : since i started my study on the CDGL, i changed the opinion of most of the collectors and historians on the subject, but a few old grumpy "specialists" are still promoting these fakes).
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VinceComment
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Hi,
i will see if i can provide part of the various archives i got from other historians about the subject. An article is planned on a TBC book on a LVF-SS officer.
The original name of the creator of the map is written on the map, Alex Dolezalek was the head of the amt (which was part of the Germanische Leitstelle).
I still need more time to get info on that map and the GL in the last weeks of the war. The best specialist on the SS-Hauptamt training formation and the Germanische Leistelle is the french historian David Gallo, who did in late 2014 a massive study of 1000 pages. I need to read the german studies that were recently released too...
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VinceComment
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