Bargain?

[DaveNZ]

True Bob it would be restored, fixed up (or humped up) as most SS tunics are anyways. Not in hand yet,,,
but here's what it looks like (before restoration), for those who might have missed seeing it in the sales thread (now removed)

why mess with it? Looks fine as it is

I guess i just dont understand why people mess around with history

cheers

dave

[NickG]

Hello Nick,

I'm really looking forward to see it with the insignia. May I do a suggestion? What about using a "Frw. Legion Niederlande" cufftitle instead of the "Nederland" cufftitle? That would be absolutaly fabulous with the tams and the Dutch shield.

(Of course that cufftitle is a bit rare and expensive)

Yeah I agree with you! It being an earlier M36 I would have also prefered a "Legioen Niederlande" title,
but as I only have a "Nederland" readily available I'll have to use that one ...
(unless somebody is willing to trade with me straight across )

[NickG]

Agree, but with all respect, how many tunics aren't ?! :

I'd be looking forward seeing it "restored" Nick. Succes!

Exactly! and thanks for the encouragement!
So many restored and "made up" pieces, that's really the norm for realists!
Look at the crap that's even been published in expensive reference books!

-Exibit A: "Uniforms of the Third Reich" (Hayes&McGuire), p.193 and p.199
Page 193: in Italian "GIL" non military youth uniform with added bogus Italian SS insignia
Page 199: a Wehrmacht 6 button with a fake Handschar tab YIKES!

-Exhibit B: "Uniforms of the Waffen SS vol.1" (Beaver) page 192-193
Based on the internal skirt pocket stitching to me its clearly a Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine tunic with added Heer infantry boards, added enlisted BeVo SS eagle, blank SD tabs with added SS runes made from a cut down SS polizei green backed SS pocket flashes stitched on top of the blank tab!!! COME ON!

At least with my project the tunic is real and the components are real

[wewelsburg]

Exactly! and thanks for the encouragement!
So many restored and "made up" pieces, that's really the norm for realists!
Look at the crap that's even been published in expensive reference books!

-Exibit A: "Uniforms of the Third Reich" (Hayes&McGuire), p.193 and p.199
Page 193: in Italian "GIL" non military youth uniform with added bogus Italian SS insignia
Page 199: a Wehrmacht 6 button with a fake Handschar tab YIKES!

-Exhibit B: "Uniforms of the Waffen SS vol.1" (Beaver) page 192-193
Based on the internal skirt pocket stitching to me its clearly a Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine tunic with added Heer infantry boards, added enlisted BeVo SS eagle, blank SD tabs with added SS runes made from a cut down SS polizei green backed SS pocket flashes stitched on top of the blank tab!!! COME ON!

At least with my project the tunic is real and the components are real

True that!

[Bob Hritz]

Sooner or later, everything gets sold. Two sales, down the road, and it sudeenly becomes 'untouched' when it is for sale the third time (if it takes so long).

I have seen many collections, but even the best SS uniform collections have not so many tunics as you would think. When I see so many happy with humped up tunics, it does make me wonder if anyone cares about authenticity any more.

Everyone should collect what they want, but I fear that these often become sold as original.

Bob Hritz

[naxos]

why mess with it? Looks fine as it is

I guess i just dont understand why people mess around with history

cheers

dave

I wouldn't call restoring history "messing with it".

What Nick is doing, in principle, is not unlike this: http://youtu.be/FcXTX0MDJvo


Good for you Nick!

.
.

[John Pic]

At this stage in the game the "humping" up of tunics is so irrelevant..it has been done since the 1950s..some of the largest oldest most famous collections of SS uniforms are full of "humped" up restored pieces that were often photographed and used in reference material...with the owners swearing by the tunics they bought from "respected" dealers who were quite talented with sewing machines. A couple were used in the Beaver books..and no mention made of the restoration work. The owner of one was honest enough on a forum to admit to restoration..the other still is with the dealer who "discovered' it.

This particular tunic was an SS used tunic and restored as such will make a great collectible...hopefully in the future "originals" will be sold at more realistic prices..especially the ones that just appeared with no proof or history behind them...yes the "humping" up of tunics may hurt values but its a hobby.

[Bob Hritz]

John Pic,

You are absolutely correct.

Bob Hritz

[NickG]

Sooner or later, everything gets sold. Two sales, down the road, and it sudeenly becomes 'untouched' when it is for sale the third time (if it takes so long).

I fear that these often become sold as original.

Bob Hritz

That's very true Bob...when such highly saught after tunics get "the treatment", meaning proper restoration with original insignia and applied with period thread (that's why even period spools of thread has become crazy expensive) how can you really tell? but ask yourself this; who in their right mind would restore something like this intentionaly inaccurately so that it stays identifiable as a post-war refurbished piece? (intentional red-flags planted so nobody gets duped down the road)

Bottom line; Its up to the owner (current care taker) to be honest about it (honest description) when it becomes available again, but down the road the history of it gets "forgotten" for monetary purposes... and especially problematic when such tunics appear in reference books described as untouched originals...a fake pedigree is now created...intentionally or unintentionally (buyer got duped)

Many collectors for that reason are hesitant to post their "original closet survivors" as the truth comes out for everybody to read on the web when issues surface (devaluating the piece) and the story starts to fall apart... (like that 6 botton totenkopf M42 tunic with M36 collar fresh out of a vet's duffle bag which turned out to be a converted Heer piece with dealer identified parts (which I now own).
It was posted on the web with a bogus story and the truth was revealed...
At least I am revealing the truth about my project for everybody to read! and showing all the pre restoration parts even!)

Btw the tunic is still not in transit yet...seller just PM'd me, apologizing for the delay... When it arrives I will post more material!
In the mean time I have been offered a nice RZM pattern sleeve eagle for it!
WAF rocks!

[wewelsburg]

Im curious Bob do you claim all your tunics are original? If notwhat difference does it make if another collector restores his?Both of you in the end have restored tunics whether you did it or the previous owner? What it comes down to is if WHEN selling to advertise AS restored.Just because you got a tunic from someone who says its original,or a good source doesnt mean it is,your selling your own belief system.And take a look at the common census here,3 guys examine a tunic and say its original,3 guys examine it and say its not,whos right? The guys with a bigger name?,bigger collection?
I dont consider myself an expert but several times just by having better eyesight Ive concluded a few tunics owned by experienced older collectors to have problems in sewing,a bad thread here or remains of holes or previous insignia etc,just because my eyes are better not because my collections bigger,or experience etc etc.Whos to say any tunics are original besides ones WITH PHOTO PROVENANCE,even some family sold items are fake as they get mixed in with good stuff.
Just because you believe its good,someone else may not,and that doubt is just as bad as if it were actually known to be restored,I see no difference.Bob I know you have a very nice collection,but Im sorry Ive heard some of it is not what it appears from other experienced guys,but are they right or are you?See what I mean,its ALL SPECULATION WITHOUT SOLID PROVENANCE.So in the end a good feeling about a tunic doesnt cut it,unless you have photos etc,some guy will question it,so doubt is doubt.Restored and questionable non provenance are no different to me,without photos who can tell,sure you can make a good judgement but there is never 100% because what difference would there be if a tailor made up a tunic in 1946 if he had same materials?Or 1986 for that matter?.Maybe Im rambling here but hopefully someone gets my point!

[naxos]

... but hopefully someone gets my point!

I totally get your point

Discrediting a correctly restored tunic by calling it "humped up" is done to lower the value.

Insisting that a tunic is "untouched" without providing concrete evidence is "humping up" the value.

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[besslein]

Nick my advice is to restore that one as NCO tunic,nice rune tab so far
you need a early war eagle.

[NickG]

Nick my advice is to restore that one as NCO tunic,nice rune tab so far
you need a early war eagle.

Thanks for the suggestion Besslein
Yeah I was thinking NCO would be good too BUT that means you would need to add the NCO tresse...
and for such an early piece you'll need probably early shiny tresse...tough too find and tricky to apply!
If it had traces (ghosts) of tresse (not sure?) and now being restored to officer (my plan),
it would still be OK as a field promotion set up... Very common, especially on a "field use" woolen tunic!
Based on all the loops that are on it definately NCO or higher! I agree
btw regarding the eafle question;
This bird is on hold for me (thanks to another WAF member jumping in with help! Source = post #40)
Its an early RZM pattern if I'm not mistaken,with some age toning, so perfect for this SS used M36 project, right? Thoughts?

[NickG]

besslein;nice rune tab so far
This is the look I am after (tabs are "field improvised" officer's set up, = recent NCO promotion)
My favorite "battle field" look on a woolen combat tunic withn slip on boards...
Not a fancy closet survivor with sew-in boards! also no silver officer's edge piping...
Need pips!!! Anybody?

[NickG]

Period image examples!