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**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 05:36 AM

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**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 05:38 AM

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**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 05:41 AM

Again, I know the swastika isn't the prettiest I've seen but it's not the worst either. Below is an even more odd-ball example worn by a guy who apparently had no issue with it.

Again, thanx for any thoughts on this one. RC

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**Francesco** · 03-29-2011, 05:47 AM

Hi Rick,
unfortunately the bullion eagle is a bad one.The one worn by Otto Skorzeny in the period picture is an em/NCO.

Cheers
Francesco

**Dr. Strangelove** · 03-29-2011, 08:03 AM

agree

Agree, Bad Bird.

**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 08:32 AM

Well, it would've been nice but I'll not cry in my soup. No big deal, but can someone point out what tosses this into the 'it bites' pile? Too much purl or something else?

Thanx again, R

**Dr. Strangelove** · 03-29-2011, 08:37 AM

Rick

Dear Rick, to understand bullion Eagles a little you are going to have to wade through a few hundred pages regarding them using the Search function. One of the most difficult things to authenticate in SS Cloth. Looking at them is almost an Art form.

**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 08:48 AM

Well, I certainly have waded through a bunch of pages & threads. That said, your description of the process as "an Art form" might be better described as a 'crap shoot'.

It would very gracious of you to throw a hint or two my way... Crumbs for the starving masses so to speak.

**Naval Enigma** · 03-29-2011, 09:02 AM

I am learning these too.

I have had a couple successes and been kicked in the teeth too. Going through old threads and starting a good vs. bad image file will help. The eagle you posted is so bad even I could spot it. I wish they were all that simple.

There are a couple different patterns of these. Good birds should have unterlagen. I attached a pic of Luft unterlagen a member has been selling on E-stand.

The bullion is hand applied around these templates. The underlying shape should be consistent with the pattern of the SS unterlagen (I would love to see a plain SS cardboard template BTW.)

Some of the repro birds use period bullion so UV is not a perfect test. Handling real ones will help you learn. Real ones are very rare and do not come up much. Some of the fakes are very, very good.

Careful. Always assume fraud and malice and work back from there.

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0lk04.jpg (91.2 KB, 360 views)

**Dr. Strangelove** · 03-29-2011, 11:07 AM

Ah!

Ah, the good old days, when you could just look for unterlagen to tell fake from real. As you know the Fakers have the unterlagen boards as well, but still a good starting point. The tell tale hints are so subtle they dare not be spoken on a Public Forum!

Enigma's right, this Bird is not close enough to warrant the usual Hen-Pecking 32 page analysis that a really good fake Bird usually brings about.

The fun in these is when you find one that is so good it's a no brainer. They just have that certain jen ne sais quoi.

**Richard P** · 03-29-2011, 02:21 PM

Naval Enigma,

If you really want to be helpful you could do an unterlagenectomy on one of your good birds so we can see what one looks like. Save all the bullion and it can be reapplied after the unterlagen is photographed. Just number each coil so it can be put back in proper order.

Doc,

Are you sure you spelled "jen ne sais quoi" right?

Richard

**Rick C** · 03-29-2011, 02:29 PM

TOO funny! Richard - I chuckle...

**John Pic** · 03-29-2011, 06:03 PM

Fake bullion eagles have been made using unterlagens since before I started collecting in 1973. The unterlagen is not the way to tell, its the fact that there were standard types of birds used...and not just a few as some think but several different types...each type that was used was not just a "one of a kind type" including the so called anomolies such as the Belgian made examples..which all look basically the same and of which there are several surviving in collections on tunics and as loose examples..and all are following a simmilar embroidery pattern.
There are other strange examples of eagles that have popped up and are called anomolies, then as you search period photos and others surface in the collecting realm that have existed but were just not known of until the internet, they are no longer anomolies. the most relished type of coarse are the so called RZM examples and for years they set the standard for what a "real" bullion eagle should look like....and they are the type most fakes attempt to resemble.
The Sieder firm of Vienna responsible for the most prolific fake SS eagles resembling the RZM pattern uses an unterlagen in fact unterlagen that may be copied from originals since they match up perfectly to original unterlagen except the cardboard sometimes glows when broken under UV even though the bullion does not. I have seen original eagles that make the one starting this post look really good and they were not "one of a kinds" they appear in pictures and as examples in collections..many of the best looking fakes are computer generated and do not use unterlagen..I do not think the one starting this thread is real though.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 03-29-2011, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Richard P View Post

Naval Enigma,

If you really want to be helpful you could do an unterlagenectomy on one of your good birds so we can see what one looks like. Save all the bullion and it can be reapplied after the unterlagen is photographed. Just number each coil so it can be put back in proper order.

Doc,

Are you sure you spelled "jen ne sais quoi" right?

Richard

No, I ain't got no Frenchie Friends. My most sophisticated Buddy is you! I love rolling with you to those "Grade B" Health Code Dining Establishments. I never actually saw MSG on a Table before in a Salt Shaker.

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