Honor Ring

[sgstandard]

A prospective buyer of the Honor Ring at Gottlieb Militaria website contacted me and asked why the name on the Honor Ring, and the name on the Honor Ring Document that accompanies it are different. One is "Schubert", and one is Schuberth. Both names appear on the SS Dienstaltersliste - one of them 6 times. I didn't want to give advice to someone spending $12,000 and be wrong. Any input from your researchers out there would be helpful.

[Mech]

Does it come with an audio recording of Don Boyle saying that it's garbage?

That's the only way to know it's real.

[james m]

The engraved scripting on these rings can be a challenge to read at times but a satisfactory explanation is certainly in order before laying out this kind of money. Is this a Don Boyle COA that goes with the ring?
Jim

[Ric Ferrari]

Looking at the promotion document, Schubert SS number (260 750) correspond to the recipient Schuberth in DAL as the first name does : I would vote for a mispelling.......assuming the paper is original or someone didn't add an "h".

Ric

[DR DOLCH]

A prospective buyer of the Honor Ring at Gottlieb Militaria website contacted me and asked why the name on the Honor Ring, and the name on the Honor Ring Document that accompanies it are different. One is "Schubert", and one is Schuberth. Both names appear on the SS Dienstaltersliste - one of them 6 times. I didn't want to give advice to someone spending $12,000 and be wrong. Any input from your researchers out there would be helpful.

I agree anybody who is spending that kind of money on any artifact needs to make up their own mind.No matter who is selling it 'If the do not have the knowledge to do that then they should not buy $12,000,00 ring$.Lastly (Is that a word) If rings and documents can be misspelled,then skulls can be put on upside down.

[tanker]

Here we go AGAIN! Another ring with questionable documentation that requires clarification/proof before purchasing (at least the person is asking before buying!).
And who/where is selling this ring? Right, Craig Gottlieb. At this point, wouldn't a buyer go to a seller who has a better track record. Ron

[David Fettes]

I for one am not happy about the Schuberth ring. reasons are:-

1. The S of Schuberth is different to the S normally found on ALL rings.
2. There seems to be an odd spacing to Himmlers signature.
3. Himmlers name appears to be spelled wrong (Himmlir) although we have not been provided with a clear photo of all the signature. Odd that.

[sgstandard]

Ring

The SS# 260750 belongs to"Schuberth" in the July 1935 Dienstaltersliste, and the same number belongs to "Schubert" on the promotion document. This leads one to believe that the document was merely misspelled. However, the July 1 Dienstaltersliste shows only one "Schuberth"(same SS#), and he does NOT have the Totenkopfring award. There ARE 6 officers with the name "Schubert", but of course, the SS# would be different. So either the 1935Dienstaltersliste is incorrect, the document is no good, or the ring is no good. I'm leaning towards the opinion of Mr. Fettes. A really wonderful and educational project would be to post a 1934 ring that's not too worn, for panel by panel comparison. I'm not crazy about the inside engraving as well. The vertical strokes on the "H" appears ragged, not crisp and fine. The horizontal strokes appear to stop and start, as to avoid hitting the vertical strokes. You can't claim "wear", as the ring is pretty mint. No photos of the joiner line - looks like there's a gap at the top of the seam. Back to the inside inscription - You have to be careful because these inscriptions are hard to photograph accurately. But the numbers, especially the "3" look pretty sloppy. Also, some of the scratches look induced. I'm not ready to say the ring is fake, but many questions need to be answered before I'm comfortable with it.

[MJC]

Hi,

I consigned this ring to Craig and I thought I'd take the opportunity to answer several questions about the ring.

I bought this ring from Pieter v. Lucas when Schuberth's family consigned the collection to him about 10-12 years ago. I bought the ring, the Darre inscribed picture and some odds and ends, while his awards, documents, and other bits were sold to other collectors. Forum member SDESEMBER bought his dagger, and some of the docs were further consigned to other dealers. I bought the promotion document from Weitze about a year after buying the ring, after he bought it and others from Pieter. My goal was to reunite as many pieces as possible.

Don Boyle has seen the ring and authenticated it years ago but I've lost his certificate. If any prospective buyer feels more comfortable with a Don Boyle certificate, I will happily spring for the cost.

Helmut Weitze also saw the ring at the MAX and offered to reunite it with pieces of the larger collection that he still had at the time.

Fritz Schuberth appears in several versions of the DAL. Please see the attached copy from the Dezember 1936 edition that indicates his receipt of the ring.

If memory serves, Schuberth's name is spelled both ways within his period documentation and I will confirm this tomorrow when I am back at NARA. I assumed this is a period error or a peculiarity of the spelling of his name.

Here is a link to Schuberth's Wikipedia entry for those who are interested
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Schuberth

The ring has been resized and SDESEMBER also has a copy of a period document that addresses the need to resize the ring. I will post a copy of that shortly.

Let me know if anyone has any questions or comments and I will try and address them quickly. If someone prefers to contact me directly, I can be reached at mjc@westmorelandresearch.org.

Cheers,

Mike

[MJC]

OK, I've just gone through his personnel file and confirmed there are examples of his name being spelled with an 'H' and without an 'H'. I will post examples of both tomorrow.

Let me know if there are any questions.

[Craig Gottlieb]

The officer's name is spelled "Schubert" only one time in the NARA archive documentation that I could find - on his promotion record to Standartenführer, which corresponds to the document that I have for sale in the listing. Everywhere else, including in the 1936 rank list, his name is spelled "Schuberth." He is the only officer of this name in the 1934, 1935, and 1936 lists, and first appears with the ring in 1936. This officer was awarded the ring in late 1935, confirmed by the documentation in the NARA file. As is the case with any officer who received the ring in 1935, it contains a 1934 date, which was the commemorative date used until 1936. I see no problem with this ring or the documentation, other than that the clerk who typed out his promotion warrant (and the corresponding memo in his officer records) spelled his name wrong. I'm sure they sent the clerk to the Dachau school of stenography for re-education. Himmler's name is not misspelled.

[sgstandard]

Ring

That clears up why the joiner seam has the gap at the top - that would otherwise be unusual. Forgive those of us who are AUTOMATICALLY skeptical, as even 1934 rings are being reproduced. The "Schindler" ring is no good, IMO. I wasn't crazy about the "Eckhardt" ring either, but I don't remember where I saw them. The "Schindler ring had casting bubbles all over it, or appeared that way in the pics. If Don Boyle liked this ring posted, I know it's fine. These days - rings change hands, documents change hands, etc. Everyone's extra cautious now. I would really like to see that inside engraving in person - as I said earlier, photos play tricks!!

[JoeW]

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