pre sep 37 SS TV collar tabs and cufftitles

[OnnoP]

I was wondering if some people perhaps would be able and willing to shed some light on the very difficult and to this day still not well-documented (let alone illustrated) subject of pre-september 1937 VT cufftitles and collar tabs? Sorry if my questions seem a bit unrelated, but they are all related to the general subject matter.

I recently discovered this cufftitle:

http://www.snyderstreasures.com/eBay...x/DSCN0640.jpg

Now I know this guy is the biggest fake-selling rip-off in the community, but would you agree that this cufftitle, if genuine, could be a TV cufftitle for Wachsturmbann Sachsen/KL Sachsenburg?

And has anyone ever encountered or heard about surviving examples of other wachsturmbann cufftitles, besides the gothic-script Oberbayern cufftitle (that I have seen plenty of original examples of, although most likely for standarte Oberbayern)? Titles like Hansa and Ostfriesland?

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the "D"-tabs worn by Oberbayern members before the introduction of TK tabs, but does anyone perhaps know if there were other Wachsturmbanne that wore letters on their tabs? The german wikipedia page on SS uniforms and insignia states that the "regional" cufftitles like Sachsen, Hansa, etc. were worn with the numbered runic tabs of the Politische Bereitschaften that a Wachsturmbann was attached to, but I have also encountered sources that state that there were many unofficial variations as far as insignia was concerned in these earlier years.

And to jump to the post 1937 era:

I have a question about the well-known Totenkopfverbände cufftitle. Which members wore this cufftitle? I only know of NCO/officer grade examples in bullion and flatwire type, but seeing as the members of the three Standarten wore either no cufftitle, or one with Oberbayern (text/skull), Brandenburg (although I've never seen an original example of this one) or Thüringen, was the TV title perhaps worn by members working at the Kommandoamt (located in Berlin if I'm not mistaken)?

And furthermore, could anyone give the date (or estimate) when Hundertschaft numbers were ordered to be removed from EM collar tabs? My guess is somewhere in late 1937, but I'm hoping someone can give a definitive estimate. I have seen plenty of pictures with the VT style tabs with roman numerals being worn in conjunction with TK tabs with Hundertschaft numbers, but never in conjunction with the pointed boards with 1-4 in arabic numerals, although I only know of this picture that backs that up:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...S+brown&page=7

(btw: one of the best threads ever started, with some of the most informative and intriguing pictures, when it comes to TV insignia: before I discovered it, I'd never seen the double swastika tab in use - most sources used to [or still] state that it was only worn by non-SS personnel on temporary KL-duty: clearly that wasn't the case, but now that I've learned that Himmler actually ordered the double swastika tab into existence because he wanted the Totenkopf division to to be the sole wearers of the TK tab, I wonder if the wearing of a TK tab from that point on by KL guards should be regarded as unofficial practice...)

And finally, I have learned from various sources that some TV guard continued to wear the, pre-earth brown and pre-field grey, black Allgemeine style uniforms and Schiffen, that they wore before 1935, well into the war years: has anyone ever come across pictoral evidence that confirms this? I have seen pictures of Trawniki men wearing (at least partially) black uniforms and Schiffen, that looked similar to, but still different from the ones worn by the Allgemeine SS, but I have never seen actual SS men in black uniform within the perimiters of a KL in the 1940's.

Many thanks for all the info and input in advance!

[Ian Hulley]

but I have never seen actual SS men in black uniform within the perimiters of a KL in the 1940's.

Eigruber is pictured twice touring Mauthausen in the famous photographs of Himmler's visits, one definately in black.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Eigruber

Ian

[C. Betz]

Sources

Angolia's Cloth Insignia of the SS, 2nd edition, Totenkopfverbande Section; gives a pretty good detailed analysis. Also Mollo's work on this organization.

Charles Betz

[OnnoP]

Charles,

I only have Hayes and am saving up to purchase "the three Beavers" all at once from Bill Shea later this year, but never had the opportunity to get Mollo's TV book...trust me, its's on my must-haves list. And thnx to Ian for the link: great pictures! But I was actually referring to EM/NCO guards, wearing black uniforms, without swastika armband and with the allgemeine Schiffen with totenkopf button, well into the 1940's: that info used to be on the website nationalsozialismus.de and the same text was copied to a german wikipedia page...anyone?

---

[Ian Hulley]

Just to clarify .... you're not getting confused with the Trawniki/Ukrainian guards who wore stripped and re-issued pre-war black uniforms ?

The point being that the Eigruber photo is so memorable because it's the only shot of anyone in a camp during wartime wearing black I can think of and I've seen a lot.

Ian

[derek]

"And furthermore, could anyone give the date (or estimate) when Hundertschaft numbers were ordered to be removed from EM collar tabs? My guess is somewhere in late 1937, but I'm hoping someone can give a definitive estimate".

Letters and numbers in conjunction with the skull were forbidden by an RFSS order of May, 1940.
Derek

[OnnoP]

!!!original text found!!!

Thank you Derek!

My deepest apologies for the huge amount of text that is about to follow, but trust me readers, this does get interesting (IMHO):

Ian, the question arose from a section in a text that I have just been able to rediscover using archive.org (invaluable webtool for any researcher!). It's from the website nationalsozialsmus.de, but its section on german uniforms has now been removed. For a long time the same text was used on de.wikipedia.org, but that german wiki page now has a much more detailed section on SS uniforms, but the following piece of text has not been included and can't be found anywhere else:

"Die so genannten Totenkopf-Wachsturmbanne, die die Konzentrationslager auch noch nach Kriegsausbruch bewachten, trugen weiterhin [meaning after the formation of the 3rd Waffen SS division] die schwarzen Vorkriegsuniformen der Wachverbände.

Sie wichen aber nun von denen der Allgemeinen-SS stark ab, in denen der Kragen und die Aufschläge des Rockes in hellblauer oder grüner Farbe abgeändert wurden. Auch wurde anstelle der Hakenkreuzarmbinde der Ärmeladler der SS getragen. 1939/1942 war es nur noch den Wachsturmbannen gestattet, den alten Ärmelstreifen der Totenkopf-Standarten (mit dem Totenkopf-Symbol) zu tragen. Die im Herbst 1939 aufgestellten Frontverbände trugen nun den Totenkopf auf beiden Kragenspiegeln, nach dem auch sie mit den Heeresschulterklappen ausgerüstet waren."

Well, except for the last part on collar tabs and Heer type boards, the first piece of information is something I had never heard of before and I don't think many people have: there are countless pictures on this forum and other fora, that show TV men around '38/'39 in fieldgrey uniform, there are pictures that show a mixture of black uniforms with fieldgrey headhear and even vice-versa (rare, but they exist). There are some surviving examples of the earth brown uniform (believe forum member Lorenz owns some if not all of those), but this text suggests Wachsturmbann members wearing black M32 allgemeine uniforms with bright blue or green cuffs and collars (!), with sleeve eagles instead of the armband, who would have been allowed to wear the skull cufftitle, and all this after 1939 (I believe another ! is in order).

This is interesting a) because there is NO pictoral evidence of this type of uniform b) because the earth brown uniform was made especially for use within the camps and would seem a more logical choice for continued use (although there is no evidence to my knowledge that it was used after '37/'38) and c) because the skull cufftitle, to my knowledge, was for Oberbayern members (and I believe it was only made in flatwire and bullion for officers) only and to my knowledge was only worn after '39 by former Oberbayern officers serving in the 3rd Waffen SS division.

And now some comment in reverse order.

c) On the subject of the skull cufftitle: remaining members of all three TV standarten who weren't recruited for the 3rd Waffen SS division, would have been mixed together after october '39 to form the Wachsturmbanne that kept on guarding KZ camps. And it would seem possible that Oberbayern members would have kept on wearing their skull cufftitle, because visually it doesn't designate the name of any Standarte that by that time wasn't in existence anymore: I assume Thüringen and Brandenburg cufftitles were not worn after '39 by any man of any given rank with a TK tab on his collar. But the text seems to suggest that any man (of any given rank?) could wear a skull cufftitle as long as he was a member of a Wachsturmbann, at least up to 1942.

b) Well nothing more to say about the earth brown uniform, but a black allgemeine tunic with bright blue or green cuffs and collars, that doesn't seem something to just make up (and nationalsozialismus.de seems a very serious website, not just some crazy man's blog). But of course I am aware of the many indications that a fieldgrey uniform with TK tab, no cufftitle, and the lightbrown KZ piped boards would have been the common dress of a Wachsturmbann member during the war years.

But then again, there aren't exactly many pictures of german camps during the '39 - '45 period: most Dachau pictures are pre '39, there's almost nothing on Buchenwald or other camps, so it could have been worn within German camps at least by some members.

I don't think it applies to camps outside Germany: to my knowledge, those were mostly commanded by Wachsturmbann men wearing fieldgrey uniforms with TK tabs on their collar (Goeth, although Platzow was a workcamp and of course Höss, to name two examples), but guarded (especially as far as the outer perimeters of camps were concerned) by SS personnel wearing runic tabs and those men would have been a mix of Waffen SS men not able to serve at the front due to injury or whatever reason, former allgemeine desk-clerks, and really just men from any place/position within the SS organisation who were recruited for camp duty as the number and size of camps grew.

The well-known Auschwitz picture album and also the BBC documentary on Auschwitz, as far as that camp is concerned, support this: the album shows a mixture of TK tabs, runic tabs and the occasional blank SD tabs, with the runic tab being the one mostly worn (and pretty much all uniforms without a cufftitle or a blank one for the SD men) and the SS man named Oskar Gröning/Groening who was interviewed for the BBC documentary, is shown in different pictures wearing a runic tab and no cufftitle.

And of course there's also the double swastika tab, almost forgot that one...

a That leaves the existence of any pictoral evidence for the before mentioned black uniform with its weird colored cuffs and collar. I know, there probably is none, but wouldn't it be nice if someday something would surface?! Seems like a pretty nice variation as far as SS dress is concerned and perhaps the rarest of the rare. Or maybe it never existed and the text is just bullsh*t. But again, doesn't seem like something to make up.

One more thing, a little off-topic in some ways, and in some ways also very on-topic: just watched The Pianist and noticed something I hadn't noticed before: when the piano player's family is put on a train to the east and he's pulled from the line by a Jewish Ghetto policeman, there is a shot of a Jewish man being beaten to death by a person wearing a black uniform and schiffen type headgear, with what could be a TK on it, but really could be any insignia: does anybody know if he's supposed to be a Polish policeman? Because he's dressed differently than the Jewish Ghetto policemen and doesn't seem SS or Polizei. In fact, he looks like a Trawniki, but a Trawniki in '41 at a trainstation near Warsaw? Any comment/clarification is welcome!

And that goes for the primairy subjectmatter as well!

[OnnoP]

confusing to say the least...

One more addition: just looked at the scene from the Pianist again (49 min. 17 sec.) and it clearly shows a man wearing a black schiffen with a TK on it (no eagle, also not on the side), but what's more interesting: he's wearing a black uniform with green cuffs and collar...but appears to speak Polish or some other east-european language...

I found this link to a picture of Trawniki men wearing a similar uniform, but in greatcoat version:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4...nvarsovjo6.jpg

Now most Trawniki wore a black schiffen with a silver button on the front like in the following picture (can't exactly make out if it's a TK button, but if you look closely, it appears to be...which I guess would indicate they were issued 1934 allgemeine/VT schiffen):

http://kuzhist.narod.ru/Trawniki/trawniki2.jpg

But some also wore proper SS headgear like in this picture:

http://kuzhist.narod.ru/Trawniki/trawniki4.jpg

It would seem that the man depicted in the film is indeed supposed to be a Trawniki and I must give credit to the filmmakers for getting the uniform spot on historically accurate.

But that does leave the question if the author of the text I included in my previous post wrongfully referred to Trawniki uniforms as being Wachsturmbann uniforms OR that Trawniki men were issued these uniforms, along with allgemeine/VT headgear, which would indicate that somewhere between '39 and '41 they were worn, or at least manufactured for wear by SS members.

Any thoughts on all this are more than welcome!

[wewelsburg]

I believ the green cuff guys are Schuma men.