Opinions on SS Cap Eagle, Button, Armband, more...

[dzyner]

Ok, I bought several items from a gentleman that included some SS stuff that I'd like to get some opinions on. The fabric of the armband looks good, I always question SS Cap Eagles so I'm unsure about this one, have no clue about the lapel pin, and the SS button looks right on to me from some other examples I've seen.

What do you guys think?











Thanks!
Dzyner

[NickG]

I think its all bad...sorry!

[waffendude]

I'm with Nick,
bad

[dzyner]

Seriously? Even the button? I at least matched the button 100% with one on a well known collector site. Can you give me specifics as to why you guys think these are fake? Is there a tell somewhere?

[NickG]

Seriously? Even the button? I at least matched the button 100% with one on a well known collector site. Can you give me specifics as to why you guys think these are fake? Is there a tell somewhere?

see this recent thread....same button...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=452869

[dzyner]

Well that just bites! What about the other items? What are the tell tale signs that give them away as fake? I'm trying to learn as much as I can about this stuff so I don't get hosed in the future. Fortunately in this case some of the other items I know to be good in the lot (non-SS) make up for these - so I'm good with them being bad.

[NickG]

Why would a SS gebirgsjager unit stamp appear on a Heer-wehrmacht administrative armband? Honestly I have never seen such an armband before but if the other items are bad its probably also not good. Note how straight the stamp is in relationship to the armband...
So assuming that it really belonged on there, they would not pay attention to that... stamping many... usually crooked... Also the fact that its printed is always risky...easier to fake eventhough real printed ones did exist, but again I am not familiar with this pattern...an Army administrative armband issued to a Waffen SS gebirgsjager regiment...???

The copper skull with soldered on pin looks like a Polsih made fantasy piece, the button skull for the side cap lacks the proper details on the skull, like jaw line, teeth and dimples (if you want to call it that) for it to be real... and the reverse edge is not perfectly round, not perfectly smooth...a cheap cast piece...
The SS cap eagle has the wrong prongs, head and other areas lack detail...so-called pigeon head fake...So no good I'm afraid
That's my opinion...You can wait for more feedback but I have doubts on everything shown here... Any source info , history, story? origin? all came together?

Update on the arm band:
Here's another one embroidered which I do trust! (but maybe its still legit? These did exist!)
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=436767



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[dzyner]

Hey NickG, thanks for the detailed and honest feedback.

I like to hear the reasons behind why someone feels an item is fake because I always fear leaving an honest item behind (undisplayed, locked away in the "trash" pile) due to assumptions. I think sometimes when posting multiple items in a single post, sometimes its easy to assume that if one item is a fake they're all fake. SS stuff makes assuming even easier because SOOOO many SS items were (and still are) faked, thus 99% of all SS items found are fake.

That being said, I had another look at the three metal items and I do see what you're referring to regarding the signs of casting on the button, and the lack of detail on the cap eagle. I had very little hope for the lapel pin anyway

To answer your question regarding origin, these items were passed on to the young gentleman I purchased them from by his Grandfather who passed away recently in his 50s. These, along with several other things, including a Nazi flag taken at the Battle of the Bulge, were passed to him (the Grandfather) by HIS father who was in the war. It's unclear as to which items specifically were bring-backs, but not all items were apparently.

[Ian Hulley]

To answer your question regarding origin, these items were passed on to the young gentleman I purchased them from by his Grandfather who passed away recently in his 50s. These, along with several other things, including a Nazi flag taken at the Battle of the Bulge, were passed to him (the Grandfather) by HIS father who was in the war. It's unclear as to which items specifically were bring-backs, but not all items were apparently.

Someone's lying then. There's nothing original there.

Ian

[John T]

Look at the printing on that armband at the edges of the lettering...they are very sloppy. What somebody did was they took an image of a real armband and used that to make the screen to print this piece. When they laid down the original armband to take the image of course the "waviness" to the edges from the bevo-weave was captured in the image. This could have been corrected with some hand touching up, but this producer did not do that, he just used the raw image to make the plate. When I have armbands in hand I can tell you if it is correct period material or modern. Often the fakes are given away by the material they are printed on or sewn from but at other times the material is quite good. Keep in mind if a piece is printed on off white material it will not glow.

[bwanek1]

To answer your question regarding origin, these items were passed on to the young gentleman I purchased them from by his Grandfather who passed away recently in his 50s. These, along with several other things, including a Nazi flag taken at the Battle of the Bulge, were passed to him (the Grandfather) by HIS father who was in the war. It's unclear as to which items specifically were bring-backs, but not all items were apparently.

There are many different reasons that fake items may end up in a veteran's souvenir collection. Here are just a few:

Sometimes another family member collects items, which over the years get mixed in with the vets actual bring-backs. Later, other family members assume that it all came home with the vet.

In other cases, vets who brought only a few items home (or none at all) regret not bringing home more souvenirs and end up picking up things at flea markets or gun shows, or wherever to make up for their oversight, not realizing that they are fake. "Gosh, look at all this stuff...I remember there being piles of this stuff back in Germany after the war...I wish I had kept some [more] of it...I guess I'll buy a couple for old times' sake."

There are also vets who did not play a role in combat actions or even serve in a combat theater who, after the war, sought to embellish their "war record" with false tales. To add credibility, some of these bought bogus souvenirs as evidence of their bogus tales.

Of course, some vets are, themselves, collectors. To many returning GI's that stuff was worthless junk. Others started a life-long interest in military history and continued to collect pieces of that history for many years after the war. They, like a lot of collectors, often ended up with fakes among their treasures.

All of the above assumes that the person trying to sell the stuff honestly believes the items came from the vet. He could, of course, be full of crap.

[D Funk]

The longer you are in this hobby you will learn to judge the item and not the seller or the story. Even a great dealer may have tha occasional bad item and even the biggest crook may one day have a real piece. Wisely spent time would include looking up similar items in the search section and than analyze feedback. We all want to know why people have various oppinions and usually the answer is right in front of us. There are alot of great people here on the forum and there are also alot of great new people joining and contributing. We have to work togeather to figure this stuff out.

[Doug Kenwright]

There is a HV armband, but it is embroidered and (when found) can be on both white and yellow cloth.

If you look closely, 'they' have scanned an embroidered example for the template to print this particular item. You can actually seen the undulations in the letters that occur when the letters are machine embroidered.

[dzyner]

Hey all,

What great feedback!! I'm really glad I posted these items, almost glad I bought them despite the fact they're fakes. I didn't pay but $160 for the lot (had my suspicions about the SS stuff anyway), which also included an EM buckle and about 15 various cigarette cards. The cigarette cards are probably worthless but the buckle I know is good since I have several others to compare to. So all-in-all, for a learning experience and some "genuine fakes" to use as comparisons in the future, I paid $160 for an EM buckle. Not too bad

BTW - great observations about the armband having been screen printed based on the embroidered version. I never would have thought about that but its now so obvious.