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**rbminis** · 06-18-2010, 10:41 AM

Although I am not as experienced as most on this thread, I would like to add the comment that I think most of us have seen many examples of soldiers surrendering or recently in captivity that still retain their insignia.
I would also like to add second hand knowledge told to me by my father who was a 16th Panzer Div. vet, that nearing the end of the war, soldiers were already aware that to be found wearing a black wrap or uniform meant that you were probably going to be shot on sight, no questions asked.

I was told that if you lost your tank in battle, you discarded your wrap and found a regular army tunic to wear.
Just my 02 cents.

**PaulW** · 06-18-2010, 08:33 PM

Real wraps

I attended the 1996 Max Show and was told by some collectors there that Clint Eastwood (a big 3R collector I'm sure you all know) had just bought an SS Panzer wrap from Stephen Wolfe. I believe it was a Wiking Hauptscharfuhrer (?), possibly with Speiss rings - a very attractive jacket indeed. The thing of note was that it was believed to be absolutely untouched with all of it's insignia since 1945 and came with lots of providence and a picture of the veteran's daughter holding it up in a photograph taken just after he returned from WW2. The price mentioned was I think $20,000 which seemed incredible at the time, but now not so incredible.
As far as I am aware the jacket never went near the Max show or any other show and I don't think Mr Eastwood has ever advertised his hobby on any forum (unless he has a pseudonym on here!!!).

On another note over the years I have heard that Michael Wittman's (stripped) black wrap is in storage at the UK's Bovington Tank Museum, and Peiper's black wrap (the last one issued to him with his last rank) is in a Swiss collection and that a big German collector (forget the name - begins with G I think) has about 10 superb SS black wraps.
In a nutshell I think there is another world out there (Matrix style) inhabited by big unknown (to us) collectors, very wealthy people, who have much of the real stuff (and some crap no doubt!) - and there isn't much of it.

But we can all dream right!!!

**John Pen.** · 06-18-2010, 09:06 PM

Excellent post PaulW .........Info like that is intriguing. I haven't come across many stories like that on WAF, but I'm sure they abound. One day I'll do a search here.

Does anyone know if the following story, that I remember from back in the day, been disussed here? ;........
that just after Bob Hope died, his house in Palm Springs got ransacked, for his huge collection of TR.

I'm gonna try and Google it now because I've never heard anything about it since then. Anyway that newstory always made me wonder.

Jp

**Naval Enigma** · 06-18-2010, 09:36 PM

Thank you, Paul.

I'm trying to get a feel for the values at the upper end. There are some bigtime items and some bigtime collectors out there. It seems the upper end of the market is an insider's game.

At that level is it even possible to pay too much?

**bnz. 42** · 06-18-2010, 11:42 PM

IMO it is more about passion than money. Have enough passion and it will get you any thing you want.

**panzer1432** · 06-18-2010, 11:44 PM

Black Panzer Tunics

Well spoken Paul W !

This is such a great thread. I live in California and have heard of many " Closet Collectors." Because of the negative political aspects of this hobby, many amazing persons remain in the shadows. You are correct I believe there are some really great pieces that are very expensive and are available, to persons with the economic power to purchase.
Yes, many dealer items have been "put together." However, there are some good items that are attainable. The collector must learn, ask questions, observe and communicate with other collectors, so that when that one great piece comes by, the collector is prepared to purchase it. I was talikg to some friends @ SOS and learned a lot. A great SS item surfaced and it was awesome. Almost landed it. Next time.

It's a great and fun hobby !

**DonC** · 06-19-2010, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by bnz. 42 View Post

IMO it is more about passion than money. Have enough passion and it will get you any thing you want.

Agree about the passsion, but passion without knowing what you are looking at will cost you LOTS of money!

In the final analysis, it's about doing your homework. Being loaded helps, but there's a lot of rich collectors out there with **** collections because they never bothered to study.

Don

Don

**John Pen.** · 06-19-2010, 11:32 AM

Sorry folks! just couldn't help it!
sorry Clint(if you surf the site

)

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**Willi Z.** · 06-19-2010, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by PaulW View Post

I attended the 1996 Max Show and was told by some collectors there that Clint Eastwood (a big 3R collector I'm sure you all know) had just bought an SS Panzer wrap from Stephen Wolfe. I believe it was a Wiking Hauptscharfuhrer (?), possibly with Speiss rings - a very attractive jacket indeed. The thing of note was that it was believed to be absolutely untouched with all of it's insignia since 1945 and came with lots of providence and a picture of the veteran's daughter holding it up in a photograph taken just after he returned from WW2. The price mentioned was I think $20,000 which seemed incredible at the time, but now not so incredible.
As far as I am aware the jacket never went near the Max show or any other show and I don't think Mr Eastwood has ever advertised his hobby on any forum (unless he has a pseudonym on here!!!).

On another note over the years I have heard that Michael Wittman's (stripped) black wrap is in storage at the UK's Bovington Tank Museum, and Peiper's black wrap (the last one issued to him with his last rank) is in a Swiss collection and that a big German collector (forget the name - begins with G I think) has about 10 superb SS black wraps.
In a nutshell I think there is another world out there (Matrix style) inhabited by big unknown (to us) collectors, very wealthy people, who have much of the real stuff (and some crap no doubt!) - and there isn't much of it.

But we can all dream right!!!

Yes, these are dreams.

Aren't you talking about the very well-known Germania wrap? It did originate with Wolfe, but ended up in another collection after changing hands a few times. I don't think one of them was Clint.

Wittman's wrap from his destroyed Tiger I??? Didn't they only find his remains about 10 years ago?

There are indeed a number of truly untouched SS Panzer wraps in collections. In fact, I know of a mint unissued wrap which is available as we speak. Pricey, but untouched and unissued; with tabs, eagle and straps.

**John Hodgin** · 06-19-2010, 12:07 PM

Have a collector friend with a Das Reich NCO Wrapper, untouched from the veteran who brought it to the US. Still retains all insignia including cuff band, and still has grease stains from the Panzer in areas.

Know of a very advanced collection with many untouched SS and Heer wrappers.

There is a lot out there if you know where to look, not for sale, but impressive pieces of history worth seeing.

**bnz. 42** · 06-19-2010, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Willi Zahn View Post

Yes, these are dreams.

Aren't you talking about the very well-known Germania wrap? It did originate with Wolfe, but ended up in another collection after changing hands a few times. I don't think one of them was Clint.

Surely about this one. It is good to have books!

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**John Pen.** · 06-19-2010, 06:33 PM

Toooo Kool! thanks.
.........only here.
Jp

**tinmantis** · 06-19-2010, 07:27 PM

I didn't know that about Bob Hope...
interesting that they were all gifts

"But the most interesting items were souvenirs that he’d been given by Allied forces at the end of World War II — personal property confiscated from captured Nazis that included an S.S. officer’s ring with a skull-and crossbones; a Nazi general’s dress uniform hat; ID cards, insignia and medals taken from members of the Gestapo; daggers with markings of the Third Reich and assorted machine guns, rifles and Luggers.

He even had stationery used by Hitler and his staff with a swastika embossed at the top. (which he’d sometimes hand out to guests as souvenirs). But Hope kept the most valuable Nazi artifact in a walk-in vault off the secretaries’ room where filing-cabinets filled with jokes and scripts dating back to radio were stored.

It was a solid-gold liquor decanter caddy about the size of a small mailbox — with remnants of brandy, vodka and scotch still in the bottles — an ornate jeweled handle and hooks on which hung small glasses embossed in gold leaf. The story was that the caddy had been discovered in Hitler’s bunker seconds after Allied troops overran it. Two glasses were beside the decanter, partially filled as though they had been used just before the Nazi officers escaped."

regards
jon

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bob5.jpg (41.1 KB, 294 views)

**bnz. 42** · 06-19-2010, 08:20 PM

jon o-man L

L wraps and "decanter caddy" you smoked too much my friend

**N.C. Wyeth** · 06-19-2010, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by PaulW View Post

In a nutshell I think there is another world out there (Matrix style) inhabited by big unknown (to us) collectors, very wealthy people, who have much of the real stuff (and some crap no doubt!) - and there isn't much of it.

But we can all dream right!!!

I find it curious how all of us travel so many of all of these websites every day, and truthfully, see only a small percentage of that which is actually out there, and become convinced that so little genuine material truly exists.

There is SO MUCH out there . . . if one were to combine all of the shows across the globe, all of the "dealers" stock, all of the museums "collections", and everything we are all so fortunate to see on each and every one of these websites, I honestly believe there would not be one single person who could comprehend the full amount of genuine and honest material that is truly out there! It may be all "locked up" in collections from all of the many previous decades, or it could still be resting in some attic or footlocker - but IT DOES EXIST . . . and sometimes it amazes me how difficult it is for us to believe so.

Yes, we do get to see SO MANY forgeries and fakes touted before us in warning every day (and this fear is not unwarranted, as even more forgeries are being made as we speak) - but if one were to attempt to positively determine how much genuine material is out there, I honestly do not believe it could be accomplished . . .

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