Help pls with EM Ari straps...!

[markus]

Friends!

I have been looking for some EM Ari straps for some time now and was offered to purchase these ...

Are they originals finally? Or do I better stick to collecting documents...

[besslein]

original

[Felix]

Is there a joint where two pieces of felt have been merged together by the zig zag thread? (It is clearly visible as a gap if you bend the strap a bit.)

[HJ12]

These straps look good to me.

Dave

[markus]

Is there a joint where two pieces of felt have been merged together by the zig zag thread? (It is clearly visible as a gap if you bend the strap a bit.)

Thanks Felix.

I don't have the straps in my posession, so I can't bend them. What
should this test show us with rgds to originality?

Thanks!

[Felix]

Thanks Felix.

I don't have the straps in my posession, so I can't bend them. What
should this test show us with rgds to originality?

Thanks!

Scrap material were used on the reverse from early warand mostly on mid war and late war shoulder straps. On a few pieces you'll see full backing felt material, of course.
The reason for a zig zag thread is to merge two scrap material pieces together to create a usable piece of cloth to be used in areas that would not face heavy wear, like on the reverse on shoulder straps. I. e, there is no reason to make a zig zag stitch line just for the sake of it.

Even mathcing pairs of shoulder straps in a lot of cases shows different backing materials. There are a lot of variantions of course and straps also have similar backings. In nearly all cases the reverse would not have a similar oriented zig zag stich line and especially if there is no "merging together" of cloth/felt pieces. This is shown if you bend such a piece and the gap will be clear of the two different backing materials. In some cases when you have a zig zag line you can also see the difference in color/quality of materials for the pieces merged together. Again, there are of course same kind of quality merged together.

Fakers are not stupid and they have since a couple of years back included zig zag stitches to fake the use of scrap material.

Now, lets talk about your straps. They look well done, and use what seems to be original piping, but have identically oriented zig zag lines. That is a BIG RED flag.

Based on the photos, I would pass on these shoulder straps.

//Felix

[Felix]

This is a matching set I bought some time ago. Similar materials used but NOT the same kind of orientation of stich lines because it is on only one of the straps. A clear gap is show on the strap with the stitch line when bent. You can almost see it from this photo even if the merging together is very well done.

//Felix

[Felix]

When bent....

[besslein]

i collect wss straps since very long time and realy like this set ,nice early war boards.

[Richard P]

Now, lets talk about your straps. They look well done, and use what seems to be original piping, but have identically oriented zig zag lines. That is a BIG RED flag.

Based on the photos, I would pass on these shoulder straps.

//Felix

Felix,

Yes...and no. Most makers of any quantity of boards followed a repetitive straight line with their patterns, which would mean the patterns would repeat many times in a straight line, often following some of these seams, or joining of materials. Sometimes these pairs cut from that same seam line stayed together...sometimes they did not. I have seen unquestionable boards both ways, so I do not feel it is a BIG RED flag, it's one indicator to be weighed with all the other of the items attributes.

I think these boards are fine.

Richard

[markus]

Thanks to everyone contributing here on this thread!  Cloth is absolutely not my “forte” and I appreciate all the help I can get toadd a couple of more “decorative”, and most importantly original items, to my LAH document collection. I have leant a great deal on shoulder strap construction. A special thanks to Felix for his effortsto show the details on construction with the help of his photos! I will go ahead with the purchase of these boards now.They are part of a package of unique LAH items and fake boards would have surprised me a lot. But never say never...especially in this field of the hobby.... Cheers!Markus

[Felix]

Felix,

Yes...and no. Most makers of any quantity of boards followed a repetitive straight line with their patterns, which would mean the patterns would repeat many times in a straight line, often following some of these seams, or joining of materials. Sometimes these pairs cut from that same seam line stayed together...sometimes they did not. I have seen unquestionable boards both ways, so I do not feel it is a BIG RED flag, it's one indicator to be weighed with all the other of the items attributes.

I think these boards are fine.

Richard

That is indeed a thing to look for. It is a trait often found on high quality fakes and is a RED FLAG. Because fakers use zig zag for no reason, to mimic the use of scrap material. One should bear in mind that there are excellent reproductions of WSS shoulder boards and straps.

If they were from a straight lines these would have to be cut slightly angled. Which is possible of course and sometimes seen, but THEN there should be a gap if bent... If one studies a number of straps on the reverse it is very rare to have them identically merged...

Perhaps I was not understood correctly, that one of course needs to check if there is a gap. Then we have a diferent situation.

Anyway, these are my observations, others might have different opinions and thats how it is.

It is kind of healthy to be sceptic when it comes to SS shoulder straps. (that goes for ALL SS insignia OF COURSE) Better safe than sorry.

Based on the photos alone I have my concerns.

Cheers,
Felix

[Felix]

Thanks to everyone contributing here on this thread! Cloth is absolutely not my “forte” and I appreciate all the help I can get toadd a couple of more “decorative”, and most importantly original items, to my LAH document collection. I have leant a great deal on shoulder strap construction. A special thanks to Felix for his effortsto show the details on construction with the help of his photos! I will go ahead with the purchase of these boards now.They are part of a package of unique LAH items and fake boards would have surprised me a lot. But never say never...especially in this field of the hobby.... Cheers!Markus

Youre welcome and thanks for the kind words.

I am just trying to help with some observations I have made.

Cheers,
Felix

[Richard P]

Felix,

Whenever I see a joined seam on the backs of boards, I always determine whether its a real seam or not. If you can't see it with the naked eye, then a little probing usually does it for me. I agree its something that always needs checking. To me big red flags are obvious fake materials, buttonholes, wrong construction...things that would not be found on original boards, or hats, or uniforms, etc.

Richard

[alexandre]

i collect wss straps since very long time and realy like this set ,nice early war boards.

I agree for Arek for this pair
The zig zag stitching to join scrap wool is since a long time correctly done
and except on very old and poor quality repro,the default of this stitching
without utility has been corrected.

I would add,sometimes,on original pair,the stitching is very tight and the separation between the 2 pieces wool (if the material is the same) is very difficult to see without to fold strongly the boards.

So for this one:nice button holes,material,and from what I see "textbook"
smooth rayon piping.