Thoughts on Prinz Eugen Tunic on Peter's Site

[billmunny]

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Waffe...s/S007463.html

[Felix]

Thats a rare and interesting combination tunic!
Eagle looks ok, and the old fighters chevron is original. The SS "police" rune is a cut out from an enlisted SS rzm collar tab. (and original in its pattern). Seems to be heer officer boards which were sometimes used.
All this is pretty much as described by Peter.

Old fighers chevron seems rather minty in comparison to the other insignias.

Interesting that the collar tabs has been removed and not the eagle and the "police" runes.

//Felix

[John Pic]

Im not so sure about it, its possible but...wasn't Prinz Eugen a mountain division ? No Edelweiss, white piping? I do not know enough about the division to give an educated opinion. Also the price is rather low for a tunic of such extreme rarity..yeah I know Im the one who thinks everything is over priced true...but based on what is speculated here on the forums this tunic would be an ultra rarity because the division was destroyed. Interesting piece went to the site and didnt see it any longer.

[Mark C. Yerger]

PE was the 7.SS-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen"

[Ian Hulley]

Photographically all the SS Gebirgs units seemed to take great pride in wearing the edelweiss yet there's no trace here ?

Ian

[N.C. Wyeth]

I cannot comment on the tunic itself, but . . .

The PE division was formed before the SS version of the edelweiss badge was created . . . so it is possible that a tunic of this calibre may not have been complimented with such a badge . . . and the white waffenfarbe is equally possible, as the division had at least one Infantry unit . . . contrary to what one might surmise from the divisions title, not every soldier in the division wore green waffernfarbe.

You will find all of this to be true via photos in the brilliant photo book, "7.SS-Gebirgs-Division 'Prinz Eugen' im bild" by Otto Kumm.

I'm surprised Mark did not offer this information . . . ?

[Mark C. Yerger]

I cannot comment on the tunic itself, but . . .

The PE division was formed before the SS version of the edelweiss badge was created . . . so it is possible that a tunic of this calibre may not have been complimented with such a badge . . . and the white waffenfarbe is equally possible, as the division had at least one Infantry unit . . . contrary to what one might surmise from the divisions title, not every soldier in the division wore green waffernfarbe.

You will find all of this to be true via photos in the brilliant photo book, "7.SS-Gebirgs-Division 'Prinz Eugen' im bild" by Otto Kumm.

I'm surprised Mark did not offer this information . . . ?

To be honest, I have minimal photo only books as my interest and writing topics are more history than militaria. While I have both for PE, I used Kumm's signed text volume copy far more than the photo book. Haven't paged through the latter in years.

I'm always suspect of nice PE uniforms due to their operational location and the formation's eventual fate. Just logic thoughts on my part.

[N.C. Wyeth]

To be honest, I have minimal photo only books as my interest and writing topics are more history than militaria. While I have both for PE, I used Kumm's signed text volume copy far more than the photo book. Haven't paged through the latter in years.

I'm always suspect of nice PE uniforms due to their operational location and the formation's eventual fate. Just logic thoughts on my part.

I thought about this a little more last night, and I may have made an error in my position on the waffenfarbe . . . I will have to re-confirm my thoughts about PE having an Infantry unit. After sleeping on it, I am not so sure this was true . . . I know at one time I questioned white waffenfarbe being used in the PE division, but it was long ago when I found my answer. I will have to look back into this further . . . but for some reason, I have the feeling that I am mistaken.

I am still firm on the reasoning behind lack of an SS edelweiss on some early PE tunics - there are many photos showing tunics from the division without such insignia.

I agree about the suspicion of anything PE related - your reasoning for such is very valid. You are a very good Author and Historian, and I am certain the amount of research you have conducted over the years bodes you well in all of your reasoning . . . please keep up the good work.

[RD Rygaard]

Not trying to "Jump on" or add fuel to the fire but I think this is a restored tunic. I remember seeing this tunic (or its twin) at the max show in 1999. It was being offered as a stripped PE tunic by a dealer from chicago whose name escapes me now, And what cufftitle would have been worn by a PE officer??????? Please, not trying to cast doubt on a reputable dealer, just adding some possible background. Regards, Richard

[N.C. Wyeth]

Not trying to "Jump on" or add fuel to the fire but I think this is a restored tunic. I remember seeing this tunic (or its twin) at the max show in 1999. It was being offered as a stripped PE tunic by a dealer from chicago whose name escapes me now, And what cufftitle would have been worn by a PE officer??????? Please, not trying to cast doubt on a reputable dealer, just adding some possible background. Regards, Richard

Interesting . . . would be nice to know more about what you recall . . .

A PE Officer would have worn a cufftitle like this one . . . there is a magnificent photo of Otto Kumm wearing this same cuff in the book I have previously mentioned. And curiously, for a while, Otto wore his old-style officer version of the "Der Fuhrer" cufftitle while he was being groomed to take over command of the division - there was quite a lot of what we could consider "controversial" insignia use in the PE division . . .

[RD Rygaard]

Egads....in regards to the CT comment...I must have had a HUGE brainfart I apologize Ive been up for 19 hrs doing a double shift at work.... but the tunic I do remember correctly....Regards Rich

Interesting . . . would be nice to know more about what you recall . . .

A PE Officer would have worn a cufftitle like this one . . . there is a magnificent photo of Otto Kumm wearing this same cuff in the book I have previously mentioned. And curiously, for a while, Otto wore his old-style officer version of the "Der Fuhrer" cufftitle while he was being groomed to take over command of the division - there was quite a lot of what we could consider "controversial" insignia use in the PE division . . .

[ApathyL]

Please, not trying to cast doubt on a reputable dealer,

I believe too many things has been going on on his side now for a while..my friend purchased what was to be Panzer DkiG cloth, but turned out to be KM, this happened not long ago, then look at some caps, the General M43, and so on,...the margin is now low with this dealer i think..


regards, Les

[Mike C]

As I remember, white waffenfarbe is used for both infantry AND divisional staff...where an obersturmbannfuhrer might well reside. To have left an imprint of the Prinz Eugen honorific on the sleeve, I suspect that the original cuffband would have been an officer's bullion version or (unlikely) the enlisted RZM version.

Given the quality of the cloth, it would be very easy to see if the eagle and runes (and why waste a comparatively expensive RZM collar tab when the SS breast runes are easier and cheaper to acquire?) have been re-applied.

So far - I am OK with this piece - although the lack of edelweiss is of some concern.

Mike