Collar tab Landstorm Nederland?

[Rednas]

Something that I have been wondering for some time. Most people and books say that the 34.SS Landstorm Nederland used a exploding grenade on the collar tabs (next to empty tabs and with SS runes). But is that true?

When going trough all the photos of this unit I have seen, I haven't found any photo where you can find it on them. The only photos with the exploding grenade on them are from the Nederlandsche Landwacht ("Jan Hagel"), the paramilitary policeforce created '44. Though the Nederlandsche Landwacht has nothing to do with the Landwacht Nederland (forerunner of the Landstorm Nederland) exept for its name. Also the books from Vincx and Schotanius only mention the empty collar tabs and those with the SS runes.

Does someone have a photo where you can see someone from the Landstorm Nederland wearing the exploding grenade on the collar tab? That would be a great help to solve this puzzle!



Some photos from the paramilitary Nederlandsche Landwacht (Jan Hagel). Often their uniforms consisted of a mix of NSB WA clothing and the feldgrau tunic/black breeches combi. Note that you don't see the SS eagle and they are wearing the printed Landwacht cufftitle:





Note that these NCO's don't have tresse around the collar:





Inspecteur of the Nederlandsche Landwacht, A. Zondervan:



Funeral, left regular Landwacht, middle a officers totally in Feldgrau. Note the exploding grenade instead of the skull on the cap and on his arm.



Note again no eagle and black breeches:




Some photos as a example of the Landstorm Nederland. I can post more, but they only show the SS runes and empty collar tabs.

Landstorm soldier taken prisoner by a Dutchman from the Prinses Irene Brigade:

[Winkelman]

David Littlejohn " Foreign Legions ", p.219 ..

[Rednas]

Hello Winkelman,

Thanks for the help, but that photo doesn't really convince me yet as by only looking at the photo, it could also be from the "Jan Hagel". Is there more info known about him?

[Winkelman]

Hello Rednas , the caption is all I have to go on ..
But I've always assumed that members of the Landwacht would not particularly be suited for transfer to the Eastern front . Which was what depleted the Landstorm of the few good men they had .
I remember writing an essay of many pages on the subject for GDC some years ago , together with Cees Kleijn . After that got deleted in full , I sort of became allergic to the subject .
Here's my favorite little Landstormer , wearing the hard to sell goggles - with indeed the blank patches - and a cleverly hidden handgrenade .. !

[Winkelman]

Even younger .. ?

[NickG]

Not sure if this officer is early Landwacht or the later Landstorm, but its a cool image for sure!
Check out the size of those Dutch made tabs to accomodate the old fashioned high collar!

[Philipson]

But I've always assumed that members of the Landwacht would not particularly be suited for transfer to the Eastern front . Which was what depleted the Landstorm of the few good men they had

The Waffen -SS scored new recruits from any volunteer unit in existence, be it algemeine SS, NSKK, org. TODT, LW-Flak units,...
It was the way it was, it was accepted and even intended to be like that, and even more so afther june 44. It was accepted that units lost many good men with these transfers. Check out the Dutch SS-wach bataljon. Also the landstorm who was intended to operate within Dutch borders, was seen by the Germans as a stepstone to "full" Waffen-SS membership including the full oath.

[Rednas]

The Waffen -SS scored new recruits from any volunteer unit in existence, be it algemeine SS, NSKK, org. TODT, LW-Flak units,...
It was the way it was, it was accepted and even intended to be like that, and even more so afther june 44. It was accepted that units lost many good men with these transfers. Check out the Dutch SS-wach bataljon. Also the landstorm who was intended to operate within Dutch borders, was seen by the Germans as a stepstone to "full" Waffen-SS membership including the full oath.

Trough this way it also could be possible to see exploding grenades on collar tabs in the Landstorm NL? When Landwacht personal was transferred in the Landstorm (this atleast happened with regular Dutch police personal).

Hello Rednas , the caption is all I have to go on ..
But I've always assumed that members of the Landwacht would not particularly be suited for transfer to the Eastern front . Which was what depleted the Landstorm of the few good men they had .
I remember writing an essay of many pages on the subject for GDC some years ago , together with Cees Kleijn . After that got deleted in full , I sort of became allergic to the subject .
Here's my favorite little Landstormer , wearing the hard to sell goggles - with indeed the blank patches - and a cleverly hidden handgrenade .. !

Could you tell me what GDC is. What was the outcome of your research?
btw nice find about the handgrenade!

[Philipson]

[QUOTE=Rednas;3695316]Trough this way it also could be possible to see exploding grenades on collar tabs in the Landstorm NL? When Landwacht personal was transferred in the Landstorm (this atleast happened with regular Dutch police personal).

Well, no doubt they would arrive in their "old" uniforms and insignia, afther that ... My guess is as good as yours.
But it carries some weight that Schotanius and Vincx are unaware of this tab and that in their 4 bookvolumes you could not come up with one single picture.
And Vincx in his previous books made great efforts to show all insignia, cuffs, badges and so on.

The picture in David Littlejohn " Foreign Legions" could easily have been taken earlyer. Hard to say of course.
A subjective statement on my part, no doubt, but his eyes do not reflect the hardship of battle ofthen read, on the faces of veterans.

[Winkelman]

Rednas , I used " GDC " for German Daggers.Com , another Forum . Unfortunately I did not keep the info filed , since I didn't know everything gets deleted after appr. 5 years .
I remember the main issue was the black German steel helmet as worn by the Staatspolitie , but probably also by Landwacht ( see my Avatar ) ..

[Winkelman]

Nick , that picture from " Beeldbank " is of Opperstormleider Hartman , LANDWACHT Commander for the province of Utrecht ( March - Nov. 1944 ) .

Wearing an unusual conversion , keeping the high-collar of a prewar Dutch tunic ( which you like so much ) almost intact ..

[Philipson]

Resurecting an old thread i know,...

Benders; Uniforms and org of the w-ss vol.1 p 18, states the 34th ss div did not use the flaming grenade anymore.
Wich is consistant with Vinckx-Schotanius and al the pictures in their book.

(and agrees with the topic starters theorie)

To expand the topic just a little:

Where it comes to the wolfsangel; You can see it used an most pictures of the legion Niederlande, but is is nearly everytime, the Dutch vertical style and not the official german horizontal style.

Vinckx Schotanius, says the wolfsangel was used in the legion and in the freiw. panz gren brigade ned.

There is a letter from Himmler about the transition from legion to brigade that states the wolfsangel and dutch flag -shield are to be used as before.

I do not have the date of this letter from Himmler to Rauter, but it is later than 01/07/43. (as it answers a letter from Rauter with this date)

littlejohn: ,wolfsangel temporary, later ss

The brigade was disbanded only 10/02/45. If any changes were made then, i dont believe troops in the field cared or even knew.

I believe, seeing Himmlers letter, it is more correct to attribute the wolfsangel german style patch to the 4.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Brigade 'Nederland' , rather than to the 23ss -division Nederland as is apparantly customary to do.