SS Officer Converted M43 Tunic

[dhunter93]

I would not mind owning it "as is" as its a representation of something it could have been. Honestly the large majority of German tunics were stripped (outside of the untouched US brought back vet souvenirs) as IT WAS LAW TO DO SO. With that said many have been restored either correctly to text book examples (better investment value) or perhaps restored to something more exotic because its like putting paint on a piece of canvas. Yes its a creation, but if all the components are period...why not? its up to the owner (his taste his standards). Its better than buying a total repro!

People collect based on what they enjoy, what they can afford and what they want to do with the piece, if its a fixer-upper. Some people might only prefer untouched originals with an impeccable pedigree, others with less resources perhaps don't mind a fixer- upper as long as its done text book and others might want something exotic like a TK tunic but would never be able to find an affordable one, so they go the restoration route...nothing wrong with that.

The fact that the tunic that started this thread was already (period) modified with an early collar, that made it an excellent candidate for an officer restoration. Its up to the owner to "choose" the branch + the components...as long as its not made to deceive. If its a tailor made Heer tunic with Heer ranked owner mentioned in the tailor tag, than of course you have less leaway...

I do think this tunic was shown initially to stir some excitement with the dufflebag rust story (perhaps in an effort to later sell it after it was blessed on WAF) and when it was exposed as being a restoration piece...well after the story fell apart ....so there was some back peddling done, explaining it was done as bait to guage the WAF membership knowledge...
too bad!

Again if you are honest with this hobby, creating something is not necessarily done to deceive...Its done to have fun with the hobby. I have a US M43 coat and I stitched a genuine FSSF patch on it to create such a US soldier impression, with proper mountain troop pants and all the appropriate FSSF gear. Looks cool. I enjoy this hobby and did not create such an exotic piece for the purpose of deceiving/selling.
I think that's an honest approach to having enjoyment with a hobby such as this.

Gosh its almost like I'm defending this persons tunic even now after its been exposed as a made up one...Anyway this is what I think... everybody has his "set" of standards, his available budget and his method of accomplishing "enjoyment" with this hobby! Bye!

Most people try to buy the best least f-with items they can find..I am shocked that anyone would want a put together POS in their collection, but the world is a strange place full of strange people..FYI the last photo you posted has been modified; might have been for a war time magazine or ?. You should also be very carful using photo's as evidence, unless you know where and when they were taken. There are lot of post war photo's depicting funky equipment and uniform arrangments that never existed.

[NickG]

Most people try to buy the best least f-with items they can find..I am shocked that anyone would want a put together POS in their collection but the world is a strange place full of strange people..FYI the last photo you posted has been modified.

Some people's junk (in their eyes) =other peoples treasure... it just depends on their taste and more importantly their budget. I've seen museums with fakes and those are museums exhibiting what I consider junk...
Example March AFB museum in Riverside with a (vet donated!) Swedish uniform with fake SS insignia. That's clearly junk, this is not...but it is somewhat of a stretch to restore it to a TK officer...I agree, its not my project.

Anyway why not restore something if you're on a low budget and while you're ad it restore it to what pleases you. Its a hobby! As long as its not done to deceive (for the purposes of re-selling with a bogus story)

but to consider a salty uniform and orginal salty insignia to match the uniform "junk" is absurd. Is a "put together" yes and all components are historically "real" and the final result is an "accurate" representation.
See below example. Note again enlisted tabs, very common.

Why the majority of SS officers uniforms survived with accurate officers insignia is because those are closet survivors...("best dress" uniforms and 100% text book) In the field often its a totally different story! Officer's SS field uniforms (thrashed, disposed of) did have upgraded enlisted insignia (tabs) and those tunics hardly ever survived, as these were "hard used" disposable garments. This TK uniform is a representation of such a piece. (hence its "salty-ness" condition making it a good candidate for such a restoration even though is a little too far-fetched for some, but that's OK, its a choice, its a hobby!)

btw that other portret picture is (insignia-wise) absolutely NOT modified, other than the KvK knights cross of course, which was period added on to the photograph a very very common modification often shown in period portraits to display the soldiers latest awards earned. That's very basic info for those who study period images!

Here's another one...
Some sceptics would never accept a high ranking Major to wear a modified enlisted uniform (with modified enlisted tabs and modified Heer cap) but pictures do not lie!

[TONY Q.W.]

Nick, I always enjoy your analysis and research and of course your GREAT and so versatile collection

[John Pic]

Nick you are wasting allot of words...everyone knows they existed..but everyone also knows that Combat worn tunics are an extreme rarity to find most were stripped. I know of one that is in a collection without the piping on the tabs that I would accept as good.

This tunic has things that from the start set off alarms..the stained dirty eagle which matches the wear of the tunic but pristine shoulder boards..in pink of all things untouched by the moths who ate part of the tunic...usually they will show signs as well. Thats an alarm bell the rest of the work has to be done in hands.

I am now curious how this escapade came about and who really orchestrated it.

[NickG]

Nick, I always enjoy your analysis and research and of course your GREAT and so versatile collection

Thanks Tony!
John, you're never waisting words when it come to discussing such topics on a forum where people share and learn and give their opinions!

[NickG]

Enlisted tabs again! Very common on officers field uniforms
!

[mmurray306]

mmurray what is the REAL deal with this? please do tell.

Rich,

The real deal on this: it was a stripped down tunic that had no insignia. The reason why I went SS insignia was the addition of the very pointed green collar. I sent this tunic to a very trusted militaria collector and restorer in Texas. He had this tunic physically in his hands for months to determine the authenticity of all aspects of it. All material and sewing techniques according to him checked out as period...even the pockets. He concluded that though the tunic is a 6 button M43 front Heer, the tunic could of been SS. (I know M43's had straight pocket flaps, but officer wore flaps that were scalloped). I asked him about restoring it to SS 3rd Panzer and he said that there was no harm in that as long as one uses real insignia. He told me that it was NOT uncommon for SS to use Heer field uniforms including shoulderboards. I looked long and hard to find insignia that looked like it belonged there. The rust on the eagle was perfect considering some of the buttons on the tunic were rusted. The Totenkopf collar tab has a moth bite out of it, which stays in step with the holes in the tunic. Alot of time and research went into to making this tunic live again. I even put in a request on the "E" section for a very worn cuff title.

Why I pulled such a stunt? I was hoping that would open up a debate about the possibilities of other uniforms that were and are out there. So many views are so by the book. They have a one dimensional view of how things HAD to be. They act like they are omni-present, knowing all like they were actually there. Sometime in the passion of collecting they forget history and the conditions of total war. (Try starting with production, demands of production, supply and demand). I have been made fun of and critized. I have received hateful emails by some of these collecting professionals. Others who also have contributed to this forum thread and offered possibilities that this tunic could of existed, has once again be considered heretics by some forum experts. I believe that this thread has brought this to light and support my and others views about the close-minded opinions of others who dominated the thumbs up and down on this forum. I am sure if I posted this they would say I am full of ****. Go figure!

I sure didnt want to come off as a liar and cheat but there was only one way in my book to show the pompass views of some people who claim they are experts. Its their way or no way. I am sorry if I hurt anybody in their enjoyment of the forum and collecting, but it was done to hopefully bring some other welcome views to the forum, not just the judgemental and sometimes demeaning views of the so called experts or the historically uninformed. I think its important to make sure scam artists are shown for what they. I had to unfortunaly had to take on the form as a scam artist in order to lift the topic beyond the initial name calling and poo pooing to show (in my view) the quest, for three dimensionality of viewing historic topics and artifacts seems to have been lost when it comes to German WWII items (especially SS).

The subject of history is NOT an exact science so ....If there is any one individual on here who has been there, inspected all German uniforms and artifacts during WWII, I will admit my views and my intentions are wrong. Until that happens, I encourage a more well rounded, three dimensional approach to WWII German historic artifacts. The burdon of proof is NOT on the back of history, its the ones who claim they know it all.

[NickG]

He told me that it was NOT uncommon for SS to use Heer field uniforms including shoulderboards. I looked long and hard to find insignia that looked like it belonged there. The rust on the eagle was perfect considering some of the buttons on the tunic were rusted. The Totenkopf collar tab has a moth bite out of it, which stays in step with the holes in the tunic. Alot of time and research went into to making this tunic live again.

Others who also have contributed to this forum thread and offered possibilities that this tunic could of existed, has once again be considered heretics by some forum experts. I believe that this thread has brought this to light and support my and others views about the close-minded opinions of others who dominated the thumbs up and down on this forum.l.

Exactly! Good choice! Go for it! Text book is boring!
Check out this SS officer! Try selling that in modern times!!
Image credit goes to as tagged. Reproduced for educational purposes!
Have an open mind!!

[CWP]

MMurray, you posted a put-together uniform you had made with SS insignia on a Heer tunic and the majority of posters immediately recognized it as a restored tunic. The notion that a very ponted green collar indicates SS use is a collector myth, Heer troops made extensive use of the stylish pointed collar. You posted something that was non-standard to show that non-standard items were used, despite the fact that the item you showed was not wholly original but rather a parts item? I can't grasp the logic there. If anything I would think this would be a cautionary tale with the lesson that an item that is questionable and is called out as such usually is not original.

[phild]

MMurray, you posted a put-together uniform you had made with SS insignia on a Heer tunic and the majority of posters immediately recognized it as a restored tunic. The notion that a very ponted green collar indicates SS use is a collector myth, Heer troops made extensive use of the stylish pointed collar. You posted something that was non-standard to show that non-standard items were used, despite the fact that the item you showed was not wholly original but rather a parts item? I can't grasp the logic there. If anything I would think this would be a cautionary tale with the lesson that an item that is questionable and is called out as such usually is not original.

I agree fully with everything that you said!

I have been very confused the entire way through this thread.....beginning with the opening post. If the point of making up this tunic and posting it on this forum was to teach the experts a lesson on what may may have been possible to be worn as non-standard uniforms...or someting like that, I think that it was a waste of time.

For me nothing was even remotely convincing about the tunic and certainly not the story.

I think that the tunic was made in late 1943 or even 1944 (are there depot markings inside??) and it would most likely not have made it to the front before mid-1944 or so....it ever. It is hardly a real combat vet as has been touted over and over in this thread......the nap is due to insect and not front line use. The pockets do not look factory applied to me...as the sewing looks wrong. The boards look like fakes to me and for sure were not worn on that tunic for 50-60 years.

I just don't get any of this.

[Luca Ongaro]

Nick, I always enjoy your analysis and research and of course your GREAT and so versatile collection

Luca

[dhunter93]

No one cares that a fraud was going to be pulled on a collector when this tunic was sold? Have some of you gone mad? I can not understand how fraud is ok because most of "the parts are good". Not so long ago we had one member authenticating fakes being sold through another member, now we are almost full circle. This is bad for our hobby but good for their business.

[NickG]

No one cares that a fraud was going to be pulled on a collector when this tunic was sold? Have some of you gone mad? I can not understand how fraud is ok because most of "the parts are good". Not so long ago we had one member authenticating fakes being sold through another member, now we are almost full circle. This is bad for our hobby but good for their business.

If it was "put together" or "restored" (whatever you want to call it or phrase it),
with the purpose of re-selling as an untouched original its deceiving and bad for the hobby, but who will fall for that? and what if it was indeed SS used at one time? you can't prove either way...

If its a recreation done because its represents something that could have been worn (as abundant photographic proof has shown mixed parts) and the owner likes the TK theme, why not? I see no harm in doing it ...

Some people just over-analyse stuff...its a hobby...something to have fun with.
The tunic is worth its value in parts and always will be... because of the anomalies, so what...
Here's another period image with anomalies...If this tunic (see image below) would have surfaced somewhere it would also be worth its value in the parts because its not text book...Enlisted tabs converted to lieutenant + Heer eagle!

Thanks Luca!

[dhunter93]

If it was "put together" or "restored" (whatever you want to call it or phrase it),
with the purpose of re-selling as an untouched original its deceiving and bad for the hobby, but who will fall for that? and what if it was indeed SS used at one time? you can't prove either way...

If its a recreation done because its represents something that could have been worn (as abundant photographic proof has shown mixed parts) and the owner likes the TK theme, why not? I see no harm in doing it ...

Some people just over-analyse stuff...its a hobby...something to have fun with.
The tunic is worth its value in parts and always will be... because of the anomalies, so what...
Here's another period image with anomalies...If this tunic (see image below) would have surfaced somewhere it would also be worth its value in the parts because its not text book...Enlisted tabs converted to lieutenant + Heer eagle!

Thanks Luca!

I am starting to smell a rat here, you just happend skipped the whole lie that started this thread. I can see there is more at work than meets the eye...

[PMan]

Name Tag

John Pic,

The four pictures of an SS officer tunic... the tailor's label in that tunic (if I remember correctly) was to an SS officer was it not? And then subsequently restored as an SS officer, correct? I don't have a problem with somebody restoring something that was; however, if this had been an Army officer tunic restored with SS officer insignia, then that isn't RESTORING, that's making it up. Please provide other details of this tunic. I think I've seen it somewhere before but I don't remember who had it.

Bob

From John Pics earlier post, another forum member was kind enough to send me a close up of the name tag in the tunic. It looks like Obfhr. RUGEL #16368.