SS Officer Converted M43 Tunic

[NickG]

Nick, You find the best pics.

Yeah its a good way to cover up the scars of a former Heer breast eagle!
Just cover it up with an SS sleeve eagle!
Un-sellable like that in modern times! That's for sure!

[Jack D.]

This forum would be pretty dull if we didn't entertain these debates.
My Father said "Learn something new everyday", and I appreciate everyone's inputs of experience and knowledge.
There is obviously some grey areas in this hobby, so one cannot always count on textbook examples.
Textbook fakes, that's another story.

Caveat emptor!

Jack

[Rich Moran]

mmurray what is the REAL deal with this? please do tell.

[judas]

Rebuilding the tunic "to make it look like an SS type M43" does not make much sense... Sorry!
SS patterns had 5 buttons (not 6) and 2 hole belt ramp supports... SS trade mark features that obviously lack here and could never have been re-created on this tunic to "fool" somebody.
Also the pocket material statement is inaccurate...(not able to find matching materials being an issue....????)

I fully agree with Luca and Peter, recycled (period rebuilt) uniforms can absolutely have non-matching pocket materials (that stand out like sore thumbs), absolutely NO problem with that for period untouched uniforms (or rather period re-touched uniforms). The Germans had to be very thrifty to keep all those troops uniformed and were not too concerned with pocket material not matching exactly! (the least of their worries in 1943 when the war was turning against them!! This is a combat tunic anything "usuable" was the norm!). Also the early m36 collar is absolutely within the realm of possibilities for a period upgrade, often done by officers for wear in the field.
Former WH uniforms did absolutely end up in SS service. This one however has been admittedly post war restored with mostly salty insignia to match the salty uniforms condition. Not a bad idea I think. Why not?
SS officers often had enlisted eagles for wear in the field, sometimes did indeed wear tabs lacking officer silver piping (again in the field) and sometimes also used Heer pattern shoulderboards...All characteristics that are shown here with this restoration example of a field worn piece.

So all these anomolies as shown on this piece are absolutely accurate for a period piece. With that said the uniform is a nice and salty piece restored to
represent something it obviously never was, but still represents something that could have existed which is a Totenkopf division Panzer abwehr officer combat tunic. Not a far stretch at all... but it should never be offered as an untouched original, rather a restored representation of something using a period uniform and period insignia. Some might call it a Frankenstein, I still like it!

Here's a period Frankenstein btw! An army tunic which belonged to a Wehrmacht NCO, later recyled for SS use.
Note both collar tresse and collar litzen were removed, and Heer breast eagle removed. Clearly a recycled Heer uniform with SS collar tabs and sleeve eagle not yet added to complete the conversion! Only black shoulderstraps were added so far.

Try selling that in modern times! In its reencarnated form it is an SS tunic! So based on this period Frankenstein example, why not create one?
Restoring something to text book would make it an easier piece to sell obvioulsy, but its a hobby and you have to have fun with it
(as long as you're honest about it, when you are ready to dispose of it.)

well done !! nick you have given hope to this forum .its not about egos that seem to be played out here . but great ! imput like you have just given .

[John Pic]

Yes you have given hope to this forum and to dealers everywhere..now they can seel former heer tunics disguised as SS and explain away all the Heer insignia ghosts with a few period photos..and let me tell you there are alot of SS tunics out there with heer insignia ghosts.Most were put together post war and I can present some evidence to that...Time to post this saved image which is now about 6 years old and was removed from this forum when it was posted before...You can believe and make excuses for everything out there but once you take a closer look you will find the truth about any item.

[judas]

Yes you have given hope to this forum and to dealers everywhere..now they can seel former heer tunics disguised as SS and explain away all the Heer insignia ghosts with a few period photos..and let me tell you there are alot of SS tunics out there with heer insignia ghosts.Most were put together post war and I can present some evidence to that...Time to post this saved image which is now about 6 years old and was removed from this forum when it was posted before...You can believe and make excuses for everything out there but once you take a closer look you will find the truth about any item.

you were reading my thoughts . but as you know and i have learnt from you there are ways of telling in hand just like the brake down i gave to you on a none tex book tunic .

[John Pic]

You are correct in hand its much easier and sometimes chemicals are used to help disguise things etc. etc etc. its a very risky venture to invest in a Waffen SS officers tunic.

[dhunter93]

Rebuilding the tunic "to make it look like an SS type M43" does not make much sense... Sorry!
SS patterns had 5 buttons (not 6) and 2 hole belt ramp supports... SS trade mark features that obviously lack here and could never have been re-created on this tunic to "fool" somebody.
Also the pocket material statement is inaccurate...(not able to find matching materials being an issue....????)

I fully agree with Luca and Peter, recycled (period rebuilt) uniforms can absolutely have non-matching pocket materials (that stand out like sore thumbs), absolutely NO problem with that for period untouched uniforms (or rather period re-touched uniforms). The Germans had to be very thrifty to keep all those troops uniformed and were not too concerned with pocket material not matching exactly! (the least of their worries in 1943 when the war was turning against them!! This is a combat tunic anything "usuable" was the norm!). Also the early m36 collar is absolutely within the realm of possibilities for a period upgrade, often done by officers for wear in the field.
Former WH uniforms did absolutely end up in SS service. This one however has been admittedly post war restored with mostly salty insignia to match the salty uniforms condition. Not a bad idea I think. Why not?
SS officers often had enlisted eagles for wear in the field, sometimes did indeed wear tabs lacking officer silver piping (again in the field) and sometimes also used Heer pattern shoulderboards...All characteristics that are shown here with this restoration example of a field worn piece.

So all these anomolies as shown on this piece are absolutely accurate for a period piece. With that said the uniform is a nice and salty piece restored to
represent something it obviously never was, but still represents something that could have existed which is a Totenkopf division Panzer abwehr officer combat tunic. Not a far stretch at all... but it should never be offered as an untouched original, rather a restored representation of something using a period uniform and period insignia. Some might call it a Frankenstein, I still like it!

Here's a period Frankenstein btw! An army tunic which belonged to a Wehrmacht NCO, later recyled for SS use.
Note both collar tresse and collar litzen were removed, and Heer breast eagle removed. Clearly a recycled Heer uniform with SS collar tabs and sleeve eagle not yet added to complete the conversion! Only black shoulderstraps were added so far.

Try selling that in modern times! In its reencarnated form it is an SS tunic! So based on this period Frankenstein example, why not create one?
Restoring something to text book would make it an easier piece to sell obvioulsy, but its a hobby and you have to have fun with it
(as long as you're honest about it, when you are ready to dispose of it.)

Then the tunic in question should be in your collection

[Bobwirtz]

John Pic,

The four pictures of an SS officer tunic... the tailor's label in that tunic (if I remember correctly) was to an SS officer was it not? And then subsequently restored as an SS officer, correct? I don't have a problem with somebody restoring something that was; however, if this had been an Army officer tunic restored with SS officer insignia, then that isn't RESTORING, that's making it up. Please provide other details of this tunic. I think I've seen it somewhere before but I don't remember who had it.

Bob

[PMan]

Yes you have given hope to this forum and to dealers everywhere..now they can seel former heer tunics disguised as SS and explain away all the Heer insignia ghosts with a few period photos..and let me tell you there are alot of SS tunics out there with heer insignia ghosts.Most were put together post war and I can present some evidence to that...Time to post this saved image which is now about 6 years old and was removed from this forum when it was posted before...You can believe and make excuses for everything out there but once you take a closer look you will find the truth about any item.

John,
What is the name inside the tunic and who owns this now?
Peter

[NickG]

Then the tunic in question should be in your collection

I would not mind owning it "as is" as its a representation of something it could have been. Honestly the large majority of German tunics were stripped (outside of the untouched US brought back vet souvenirs) as IT WAS LAW TO DO SO. With that said many have been restored either correctly to text book examples (better investment value) or perhaps restored to something more exotic because its like putting paint on a piece of canvas. Yes its a creation, but if all the components are period...why not? its up to the owner (his taste his standards). Its better than buying a total repro!

People collect based on what they enjoy, what they can afford and what they want to do with the piece, if its a fixer-upper. Some people might only prefer untouched originals with an impeccable pedigree, others with less resources perhaps don't mind a fixer- upper as long as its done text book and others might want something exotic like a TK tunic but would never be able to find an affordable one, so they go the restoration route...nothing wrong with that.

The fact that the tunic that started this thread was already (period) modified with an early collar, that made it an excellent candidate for an officer restoration. Its up to the owner to "choose" the branch + the components...as long as its not made to deceive. If its a tailor made Heer tunic with Heer ranked owner mentioned in the tailor tag, than of course you have less leaway...

I do think this tunic was shown initially to stir some excitement with the dufflebag rust story (perhaps in an effort to later sell it after it was blessed on WAF) and when it was exposed as being a restoration piece...well after the story fell apart ....so there was some back peddling done, explaining it was done as bait to guage the WAF membership knowledge...
too bad!

Again if you are honest with this hobby, creating something is not necessarily done to deceive...Its done to have fun with the hobby. I have a US M43 coat and I stitched a genuine FSSF patch on it to create such a US soldier impression, with proper mountain troop pants and all the appropriate FSSF gear. Looks cool. I enjoy this hobby and did not create such an exotic piece for the purpose of deceiving/selling.
I think that's an honest approach to having enjoyment with a hobby such as this.

Gosh its almost like I'm defending this persons tunic even now after its been exposed as a made up one...Anyway this is what I think... everybody has his "set" of standards, his available budget and his method of accomplishing "enjoyment" with this hobby! Bye!

[John Pic]

No I dont believe it was an SS officers tunic before it was turned into one. I do not know who owns it or where it is now but it was involved in a contraversial dealing.

[Ian Hulley]

It is pretty interesting how Peter Manzie always shows up when some shady items are brought into question. And he Always tries to play dumb after his twisted little web starts to fall apart. This is not only about SS cloth but in the headgear section many times over again (not in the recent past though, good job Peter). Ntz was on to you, and your little evil doings!!!

Exactly, we've seen it time and time again.

Ian.

[BenVK]

It is pretty interesting how Peter Manzie always shows up when some shady items are brought into question. And he Always tries to play dumb after his twisted little web starts to fall apart. This is not only about SS cloth but in the headgear section many times over again (not in the recent past though, good job Peter). Ntz was on to you, and your little evil doings!!!

He's at it again here too.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=395825

[PMan]

The Tunic

Is it possible to make out the name in the tunic?