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    #1

    LAH Double chevron on right sleeve question

    A question re a photo of the 1936 LAH route marching in their grey uniforms. The
    commander's tunic's right sleeve bears two chevrons. One is upper sleeve, the other on the lower sleeve. I'm sure the upper one is the Old Fighters, but there is another chevron that I can't identify on his lower sleeve that is very similar in appearance to the upper one. Its been suggested that the lower stripe was actually a pre-war Heer shooting badge that the SS had temporarily adapted. Someone had a photo with several of these lower sleeve chevrons. Can anyone clarify this?

    I had found the photo buried in the old Ballantine "Waffen SS: the asphalt soldiers" pp 56-57. Perhaps someone has a better version of this photo or another which illuminates this mystery twin or multi-stripe.
    Tags: None
    #2
    2nd chevron on right sleeve.

    This sounds like the first type of insignia denoting the Stabscharfuhrer, also known as Der Spiess.

    Charles Betz
    Attached Files
    Last edited by C. Betz; 11-09-2009, 01:00 AM.

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      #3
      Originally posted by C. Betz View Post
      This sounds like the first type of insignia denoting the Stabscharfuhrer, also known as Der Spiess.

      Charles Betz
      Thanks for that photo and explanation. Whenever I had seen references to SS uniform honor armwinkels, I had assumed them to be either the Old Fighters, the ex military/Police, or the Stahlhelm. Were these all of the honor chevrons? Were there ever orders to discontinue wearing them?

      Looking further, I did find reference to "Der Spiess" chevron in Mollo's vol. 1 mentioned briefly.

      Perhaps some members would like to showcase some of thier prime ehrenwinkel here, along with any photos of the rare Stabsscharfuhrer stripe. Does anyone have one in thier collection?

      Comment

        #4
        such a Winkel is a very rare bird, always would love to find one ...

        Comment

          #5
          I have the asphalt soldiers book as well (the person you mention is seen at the front left of the formation), and I also agree that the double-chevron was used to signify Der Spiess.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by No~One View Post
            I have the asphalt soldiers book as well (the person you mention is seen at the front left of the formation), and I also agree that the double-chevron was used to signify Der Spiess.
            The uniform of the LAH "Der Spiess" marching in the 1936 photo, in your opinion, the earth grey or the early field grey? So far we have seen the stripe worn on two different type of uniforms.
            Last edited by ROV; 11-09-2009, 03:18 PM. Reason: typo

            Comment

              #7
              very interesting!

              wasn't there also a pre war shooting award shaped like that before the diamond/raute were awarded?

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Vinland View Post
                very interesting!

                wasn't there also a pre war shooting award shaped like that before the diamond/raute were awarded?

                Someone had mentioned that pre-war shooting stripe to me. He cited a photo he'd seen of a tunic with THREE right sleeve chevrons. I'm assuming he meant 2 lower sleeve chevrons along with a standard upper sleeve honor chevron. Perhaps someone could verify such a photo or has one in their collection to display here.

                This raises another question: Are there any differences in color or design from the 3 different right sleeve chevron groups?

                The first group, honor chevrons, we are already familiar with.

                Perhaps someone can inform us about the lower sleeve insignia:Stabsscharfuhrer stripe(s) and the pre-war early pattern Heer(?) marksman stripe(s). They seem to be quite rare.

                Comment

                  #9
                  The Heer marksmanship awards allowed on the SS uniform in the early thirties consisted of 8 cm long horizontal braid stripes and a chevron according to the grade of the award. The curved chevron indicated a sharpshooter. The award was worn on the left cuff, (below the cuff title).
                  These were replaced by the SS system of sleeve diamonds which were, in turn, replaced by the silver marksmanship badge.
                  Derek

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by derek View Post
                    The Heer marksmanship awards allowed on the SS uniform in the early thirties consisted of 8 cm long horizontal braid stripes and a chevron according to the grade of the award. The curved chevron indicated a sharpshooter. The award was worn on the left cuff, (below the cuff title).
                    These were replaced by the SS system of sleeve diamonds which were, in turn, replaced by the silver marksmanship badge.
                    Derek
                    Great! That eliminates the supposition that the chevrons were Heer badges since those insignia were worn on the lower left sleeve.

                    This narrows the question field down to the Stabsscharfuhrer chevron.

                    This insignia was established in 1934 for wear on the black SS service uniform to indicate the rank
                    of SS Stabsscharfuhrer "der spiess". We know from photo evidence that this rank chevron was worn on both the M32 Allgemeine-SS black Dienstrock and also on the 1935 Erdgrau (Earth-grey) tunic.

                    The reference photo seems to indicate that the insignia was a (silver-grey?) strip slightly similar in
                    pattern to, but broader and longer than, the honor chevrons. It was worn on the tunic lower sleeve above the cuff. At some point it was replaced by Heer style, double-cuff lace.

                    Did it differ in color or design from the upper-sleeve honor chevrons? We do not know if it was also authorized for wear on the black SS service greatcoat Dienstmantel or if it survived to be worn on the 1937 field-grey (feldgrau) uniform by the SS-VT. Was it at this time the chevron was replaced by Heer style, double cuff lace? Was it ever worn by the SS-TV on their earth-brown (erdbrun) uniform?

                    Would a correct title for this chevron be: "SS Stabsscharfuhrer ehrenwinkel abzeichen"?

                    Hopefully there are experts or collectors in the forum that can correct any inaccuracies or contribute to our investigation regarding this rare insignia.

                    Has anyone seen any photos beyond the two that are referenced in this thread?

                    Was the position of Stabbsscharfuhrer a rare position held in the SS? If so, it might explain why
                    this chevron was rare and why no one seems to have any photos nor any actual chevrons in their
                    collection.

                    Thanks to the invaluable member assistance in this investigation

                    Comment

                      #11
                      ROV,
                      The title you suggest would be incorrect as the winkel was not an ehrenwinkel. It was purely a staff position. In official SS documents it was referred to as Winkel fuer Stabsscharfuehrer.
                      The material was aluminium and, in addition to being wider, lacked the black inner black stripe of the honour chevron for old fighters. It was issued as a 20 cm strip of braid that was then folded into the chevron shape.
                      Derek

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