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**David Fettes** · 10-26-2009, 05:02 PM

Even HAPAG themselves use the term HAL in their 1927 travel guide Through Germany. I have also noticed that shipping and other maritime collectors agree that HAL in the monogrammed form is HAPAG property.

Some people are seeing what they want to believe on this one.

**Lupara** · 10-26-2009, 05:39 PM

Some people are seeing what they want to believe on this one

Can't blame them,you spend money on dishes and silverware thinking its LAH related then this tidbit turns up and pisses on your parade,I know the feeling.

**TonyS** · 10-26-2009, 06:55 PM

So far I'm not seeing any firm proof at all that HAPAG used this HAL styled logo.

We can all post as many photos of dishes and cutlery with and without either logo but it proves nothing so far. Documentary evidence would be helpful but I can see none of that yet.

As for Mollo's assertions that HAPAG "sold" this logo to the SS, I am highly skeptical. What are his sources for this claim?

I can see that HAPAG had two definite logos in their history: <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CAngie1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso htmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CAngie1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso htmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CAngie1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso htmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

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ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="******45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>an early stylized anchor logo enclosing the letters "HAPAG" and then changed to a "pentagram" shaped logo (very art deco in style) also enclosing the letters "HAPAG". Both types appear on dishes, cutlery, souvenirs and company stationery.

I have sent off an email to HAPAG-Lloyd, asking them about the logo history for HAPAG. Hopefully they will reply.

I've also sent an email to Paul Gjenvick at Gjenvick-Gjønvik Group who specializes in Steamship memorabilia and has access to quite an amount of HAPAG period documents.

**Leroy** · 10-26-2009, 07:02 PM

Why would a Leibstandarte china piece have HAPAG on it in addition to the stylized logo?

**Mr. Scratch** · 10-27-2009, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by leib1 View Post

That all the old fixtures and furnishings might have
been sold off at auction.The ss buy it for there new barracks at Berlin Lichterfelde as the tableware already bearing a cipher.

So - some of this material is still SS issue, even if it was originally intended for HAPAG? And even supposing HAPAG did produce a line of monogrammed dinnerware bearing the monogram (some/most of which would never have any SS connection), my guess is that LAH likely produced their own tableware, with the LAH monogram. If this is true, there could be perfectly legitimate SS porcelain bearing the same logo as HAL. How can we tell this stuff apart?

**leib1** · 10-27-2009, 03:26 PM

Did any of the other ss division's have there own tableware with divisional
emblems on ?

**TonyS** · 10-27-2009, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by leib1 View Post

Did any of the other ss division's have there own tableware with divisional
emblems on ?

Not that I've ever seen.....

**David Fettes** · 10-27-2009, 06:16 PM

Now I believe (and this is only my opinion) that the LAH didnt not have their own monogrammed plates, bowels etc etc

I believe that ALL the LAH monogrammed stuff out there is if fact HAL shipping items. The reason I say this is that the items do not conform to the general style of mess canteen pieces. At any flea market I can spot a period canteen plate from 20 paces due to the design, colour and size etc etc. It is usually only when you turn the item upside down, do you know if its DAF, RAD,Heer, Luftwaffe and so on.

A Heer plate is the same a Luft plate, the only difference is the transfer on the base.

.

**David Fettes** · 10-27-2009, 07:09 PM

Below is a selection (from here and other sources) showing the backs of HAL and LAH (alleged) plates.
I think that the numbers on the plates are the manufacture dates and if so, then they CANNOT be LAH.

Attached Files

LAH backs.jpg (38.2 KB, 235 views)

**Thorsten B.** · 10-27-2009, 08:26 PM

It is ridiculous that still some collectors want to believe that for example the Leibstandarte had their own designed tableware.

They obviously think that these guys in their time could make just everything happen only because they were the Leibstandarte of Hitler.

In fact the traditional elite of the Deutsches Reich laughed about these guys - and they were actually poor, they did not even have a new building but had to use the old Kadettenanstalt.
And they could be happy if they were financially set in the possibility to buy new stuff at all!

Especially when it comes to reality and conditions within those years concerning the SS enthusiasts of today do not face reality but live in dreams.

And as a result buying this crap can be an expensive dream, though.

**leib1** · 10-28-2009, 02:41 PM

Thanks Tony,
i after agree with Thorsten

**TonyS** · 10-28-2009, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by leib1 View Post

Thanks Tony,
i after agree with Thorsten

Yeah - I won't be holding my breath for any period proof to appear that the LAH had their own dinnerware with the LAH logo.....

**Mr. Scratch** · 10-28-2009, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

It is ridiculous that still some collectors want to believe that for example the Leibstandarte had their own designed tableware.

They obviously think that these guys in their time could make just everything happen only because they were the Leibstandarte of Hitler.

In fact the traditional elite of the Deutsches Reich laughed about these guys - and they were actually poor, they did not even have a new building but had to use the old Kadettenanstalt.
And they could be happy if they were financially set in the possibility to buy new stuff at all!

Especially when it comes to reality and conditions within those years concerning the SS enthusiasts of today do not face reality but live in dreams.

And as a result buying this crap can be an expensive dream, though.

Weeelll...sometimes I think that in an effort to distance themselves from people who have bought "fakes" (and thereby avoid having their own expertise called into question), people sometimes overstate their case a bit.

Prior to this revelation, I don't think it is "ridiculous" for people to have assumed that some segments of the LAH had their own dinnerware. We've seen all sorts of dinnerware from elsewhere in the party, and when confronted by an original, untampered period plate bearing the (hitherto thought) unique LAH monogram, you don't have to be a fool to think that perhaps a similar arrangment had been made for LAH as with others.

And why not? They were, after all, the standarbearers of the SS, bodyguard of Hitler, the spit-n-polish ceremonial troops that appeared at all big public events. They were held to a higher standard in regard to appearances, and I would guess rewarded to a higher stadard in many things as well. And we all know that the SS was heavily invested in private enterprises, one of which was porcelain...and was inclined to provide their own supply from these industries, presumably at a discounted rate. Again, when you are holding such a plate in your hand, ignorant of the bizarre HAPAC situation, it wouldn't be unreasonable or "ridiculous" to think it a possibility, if not a probability.

While it is true that many in the Reich privately mocked the LAH for a time, I believe it was because of their reputation as paradeground troops; toy soldiers not properly fit for combat. I doubt it was because they lacked for money or decent equipment, and could not have afforded some decent personalized china for an officer's mess in Berlin.

**David T** · 10-28-2009, 07:15 PM

Interesting thread. I wondered how long it would be before this subject arose. I aslo briefly read through the same article Leib1 refers to in the "The Armourer" magazine. It was an interesting article. I believe the article clearly stated the serving ware/dinner ware was without a doubt from the cruise line. If I remember correctly, the article then goes on to theorize some possible connections between the cruise line and the LAH. I believe it may have been mentioned that some of these items have turned up in areas of Eastern Europe where the LAH served. However...like I said I only briefly read through the article and I may be mistaken.

**David Fettes** · 10-29-2009, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by David T View Post

I aslo briefly read through the same article Leib1 refers to in the "The Armourer" magazine. It was an interesting article. I believe the article clearly stated the serving ware/dinner ware was without a doubt from the cruise line. If I remember correctly, the article then goes on to theorize some possible connections between the cruise line and the LAH. I believe it may have been mentioned that some of these items have turned up in areas of Eastern Europe where the LAH served.

I have not read "The Armourer" for a long time now but I do agree that these items are in fact HAL and not LAH. The idea that there may be a connection to to the cruise line and the LAH is just a theory and nothing more. If they have turned up in Eastern Europe then I would assume that these are Eastern port areas and nothing more. Like I said before even the HAPAG called this line HAL (1920-1927).

These item are not and never have been LAH.

.

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