Matching visor insignia 475/43

[sabersandsuch]

Again, no expert,

Thank you
Tony

[sabersandsuch]

A

[john mack]

Ss

An edjucated comment imo will need a sraight pic front and back of the set , the angle is too much to see the details of the insignia

[bwanek1]

No additional photos needed. 100% fake.

[sabersandsuch]

Thanks for the post, I found that they never made this insignia, or no know originals at least.

Tony

[bwanek1]

Thanks for the post, I found that they never made this insignia, or no know originals at least.

Tony

Correct.

FYI, though 475 is not a marking you will find on any original skulls, Wagner did make eagles under this SS contract number. However, they were in 39 and 42, not 43.

Brad

[juoneen]

Just out of curiosity...Does anyone know if wagner made any badges with a L 475 /39 rzm (In a circle) as a mark ?

[bwanek1]

Just out of curiosity...Does anyone know if wagner made any badges with a L 475 /39 rzm (In a circle) as a mark ?

That is what I was trying to explain in post #6. 475/39 and 475/42 are original markings, but 475/43 is not.

[Gary Symonds]

What is the historical evidence that 475/43 is a repro number? That is a conclusion without support, since NOBODY has a list of what these code numbers refer to. How about some evidence, guys!

[Ian Hulley]

Because we know when they were made and first surfaced to the collecting community (late 70's) and that none have ever come direct and untouched from the SS vet source.

Ian.

[bwanek1]

What is the historical evidence that 475/43 is a repro number? That is a conclusion without support, since NOBODY has a list of what these code numbers refer to. How about some evidence, guys!

Where is your evidence that unicorns don't exist? How about leprechauns?

There are decades of experience to support conclusions by dedicated collectors and subject matter experts regarding which maker marks can reliably be connected with credible sources and which appeared only well after the war and without any provenance. The burden of providing evidence to support an assertion that some other number is authentic lies with the person making the claim. YOU must provide evidence if you claim 475/43 is an authentic mark...or that unicorns or leprechauns exist.

[Gary Symonds]

It is impossible to prove a negative. One can only look at the suspect items. If the eagle and skull are die made, and the construction is consistent with originals, the fact that they were not noted until the 70s, proves nothing. Unless the list of code numbers should surface at this late date, the jury is out imo, re 475/43. This damning on a global basis is another example of how urban myths originate.

[bwanek1]

It is impossible to prove a negative. One can only look at the suspect items. If the eagle and skull are die made, and the construction is consistent with originals, the fact that they were not noted until the 70s, proves nothing. Unless the list of code numbers should surface at this late date, the jury is out imo, re 475/43. This damning on a global basis is another example of how urban myths originate.

You are only listening to half of what you are being told. Besides the fact that these did not begin surfacing until three decades or so after the war (which, incidentally, may prove nothig, but is certainly damning evidence), NONE HAVE EVER COME FROM A RELIABLE, CREDIBLE SOURCE, WITH PROVENANCE CONNECTING THEM TO WARTIME PRODUCTION. Not only can we document the others as having been around since well before it was profitable to fake such things, but we also have examples which came directly from veterans. There is no such provenance connected with any 475/43-marked eagle.

A lot of eager amateurs will ignore this important element in establishing authenticity. To them--and you--I say believe whatever you want and collect whatever makes you happy, but ignore the wisdome that comes from those with greater experience at the risk of your investment value.

You are welcome to go buying up all of the 475/43 eagles you can find, because you believe them to be original in spite of what you have been told here. It is your money. However, if you are unable to convince anyone else of their originality if/when you should ever decide to sell them, you will have no one to blame but yourself.

[juoneen]

sorry, i just got back to this question i had on the L475/39 RZM mark. I did read what you stated , and understood your theory on the 43 475 marked skull, and have no opinions as to the 43 marked skull or eagle, as i have never found one from a vet marked that way either...but I am still curious as to if you have ever seen an;L 475/39 rzm mark on any badges , non relating to the skulls,or hat eagles, as to me a skull doesnt to me fall under the catagory of what i call a badge. To me a badge is a pinback award worn on the tunic . Specifically I found a youth leaders sports badge with that mark about a year ago, or so..and , ...again always having an interest in the unusual i felt it was compelling enough to pick up .
If you care to see the mark , ill post it , but do not wish to hijack this thread or distract anyone from its point...wich is about the hat emblems made for the ss by this company. So if permission is granted by the thread starter ,I will, if i get no response ill assume it isnt appropriate for this thread. And is there anyone else with any other badges with the L 475/39 RZM(in a ciircle) mark know anywhere out there. I also have never seen an L used that way anywhere else, so i figure it must have been done before the standardizing of marks, or processes in that particular award. Thanks for the indulgence of my destraction.

One more Question: If the 475 company (wich i am unsure if its wagner or not , but may be )made items for the ss, would it be safe to assume all items they made would be for use by the SS as a sanctioned maker specifically for them or that branch of service? Thanks again.

[bwanek1]

sorry, i just got back to this question i had on the L475/39 RZM mark. I did read what you stated , and understood your theory on the 43 475 marked skull, and have no opinions as to the 43 marked skull or eagle, as i have never found one from a vet marked that way either...but I am still curious as to if you have ever seen an;L 475/39 rzm mark on any badges , non relating to the skulls,or hat eagles, as to me a skull doesnt to me fall under the catagory of what i call a badge. To me a badge is a pinback award worn on the tunic . Specifically I found a youth leaders sports badge with that mark about a year ago, or so..and , ...again always having an interest in the unusual i felt it was compelling enough to pick up .
If you care to see the mark , ill post it , but do not wish to hijack this thread or distract anyone from its point...wich is about the hat emblems made for the ss by this company. So if permission is granted by the thread starter ,I will, if i get no response ill assume it isnt appropriate for this thread. And is there anyone else with any other badges with the L 475/39 RZM(in a ciircle) mark know anywhere out there. I also have never seen an L used that way anywhere else, so i figure it must have been done before the standardizing of marks, or processes in that particular award. Thanks for the indulgence of my destraction.

One more Question: If the 475 company (wich i am unsure if its wagner or not , but may be )made items for the ss, would it be safe to assume all items they made would be for use by the SS as a sanctioned maker specifically for them or that branch of service? Thanks again.

475 was the SS contract number for Ferdinand Wagner. Under the marking convention used for direct SS contracts, the contract number was followed by the contract year (making the full SS marking codes for metal insignia produced by Wagner directly for the SS 475/39 and 475/42). Wagner also produced insignia for the RZM under the contract number 8 (making the full RZM marking code for metal insignia M1/8).

The production of duplicate badges and medals was governed by the LDO. Under that system, the L preceeds their own contract number, which is entirely unrelated to both the RZM and SS contract numbers. Therefore, the marking you are describing involving the number 475 has nothing to do with Wagner.

The specific marking you describe above does not make sense to me. It sounds like a mix of LDO and RZM (and perhaps SS) markings on one item, which causes me to question its authenticity.