ss/SD jacket from Norway

[NickG]

The awkward tab positioning probably has a lot to do with the missing NCO tress.

I did not catch that! Good point!! I guess that's a good observation, its been removed if you look closely.
Corrected text!
Here's an explanation why: It was dictated in 1942 to have no tresse worn on SD-SiPo uniforms...
Because SD men often wore V-neck tunics or tunics pressed open with shirt and tie showing, he did not bother relocating the collar tabs after removal of the tresse...so it looks odd now buttoned up...
So SD NCO's did not always wear the NCO tresse...it depended on the time period (pre or post 1942)
They wore Polizei like patterns and Waffen SS like straps, anyway that's where I went wrong overlooking the removal of NCO collar tresse here...! Often these NCO tresse weren't worn... so I was not looking for traces of it...
It depended on the time frame and if regulations were adhered to...older uniforms (if the owner bothered) had the tresse removed in 1942...More on this in post 21!

Here's a nice wartime image dated 1939 with tresse!

[NickG]

Can you show me a period picture then please of a Sipo NCO with W-SS style boards ?

Here's another one. Waffen SS style shoulder straps with Polizei "poison green" waffenfarbe. This is an infamous Dutch collaborator SD man...

[DeMil]

I love this tunic
And I love the flatwire offiser eagle.

DeMil

[Hardigan]

On these photos are SD men , not Sipo . Only SD wore litzen and W-SS shoulderboards because they were an intelligence-service of the SS (SS-style insignia) . Sipo was security police (Polizei-style insignia) and always without litzen !

[NickG]

On these photos are SD men , not Sipo . Only SD wore litzen and W-SS shoulderboards because they were an intelligence-service of the SS (SS-style insignia) . Sipo was security police (Polizei-style insignia) and always without litzen !

Hardigan I assume you mean "tresse" not "litzen"...??
Anyway this tunic thread is titled SD not Sipo...and your statement is IMHO not entirely accurate...

"Sipo" btw is a pre war term... In September 1939, with the founding of the SS's Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA), the Sicherheitspolizei as a functioning state agency ceased to exist as they were merged into the RSHA's own departments. However its terms survived in common usage within Nazi Germany.

"Inspektor des Sicherheitspolizei und SicherheitsDienst" (SiPo-SD) was used by local security force commanders in charge of SD, Gestapo, Kripo, and Orpo units. The Inspectors of the Security Police answered to both the RSHA and to local SS and Police Leaders.
The term SiPo was also used figuratively to describe ANY security police forces of the RSHA including the SD. So an SD uniform is a SiPo uniform....
but SD did have their unit SD sleeve insignia, lacking on this uniform, I agree those are SD men pictured in the images and the unifom is decribed as SD, the topic of this thread.

Here's another image dated 1941 so same shoulderstraps as the tunic that started this thread + NCO tresse!

[NickG]

OK I hit the books on this rank issue to nail down what was worn when....
According to Andrew Mollo in August 1941 the SD-SiPo was allowed to wear Waffen SS style shoulder straps as long as the Waffenfarbe was Polizei green. In 1942 however because of too much confusion with Waffen SS, to stand out better it was ordered for SD-SiPo change to the Polizei pattern shoulder straps/shoulderboards.

In January 1942 is was also dictated that NCO's no longer were allowed to wear collar tresse.... (like the regular polizei) hence the removal of the tresse seen on this uniform that started the thread... It does still show the Waffen SS pattern shoulderstraps still.... so a 1/2 conversion...
I assume in reality a hodge-podge of styles were worn...whatever was available or prefered...not strictly adhering to the regulations...
Here is a period image of a uniform with Polizei style shoulderstraps and no NCO tresse on the collar...

[NickG]

Similar uniform (yellow) as prior image, so no tresse on this NCO collar. Note blank collar tab + SD sleeve raute! Other SS NCO's with NCO collar tresse and regular SS tabs...
Not clear in the image what pattern shoulderboards this SD/SiPo NCO is wearing...
Polizei style or Waffen SS style? Looks wide so Waffen SS style?
All regular SS men (camp guards in Holland, hence their age!) with regular Waffen SS style uniforms
with ss tabs and SS style shoulder straps, so not SD-Sipo men... The officer 3rd from the viewers left is also SD-SiPo with a blank collar tab like the NCO on the far right.

[NickG]

and for comparison purposes here's another SD-SiPo uniform example (archive image, not sure where i got this from...so sorry I can't give credit...) not my uniform and possibly not even authentic... but it does show the "Polizei style" shoulderboards with SiPo-SD black base and collar with NO NCO tresse ="polizei style"...Eventhough the authenticity might be questionable this example does provide an idea of what the "Polizei style" rank system looks like in color, as introduced in 1942.
I like the uniform that started this thread way better with flat wire officer sleeve eagle (unlike below image)!

[Hardigan]

OK I hit the books on this rank issue to nail down what was worn when....
According to Andrew Mollo in August 1941 the SD-SiPo was allowed to wear Waffen SS style shoulder straps as long as the Waffenfarbe was Polizei green. In 1942 however because of too much confusion with Waffen SS, to stand out better it was ordered for SD-SiPo change to the Polizei pattern shoulder straps/shoulderboards.

In January 1942 is was also dictated that NCO's no longer were allowed to wear collar tresse.... (like the regular polizei) hence the removal of the tresse seen on this uniform that started the thread... It does still show the Waffen SS pattern shoulderstraps still.... so a 1/2 conversion...
I assume in reality a hodge-podge of styles were worn...whatever was available or prefered...not strictly adhering to the regulations...
Here is a period image of a uniform with Polizei style shoulderstraps and no NCO tresse on the collar...

I don't know where Mollo has the info from but in reality the 'Tresse' or 'Litzen' (both terms are correct) can be seen on pictures of SD in '43 which I have. And I don't think there was a hodge-podge of styles in '43 .
Here's one picture of SD Pilsen which was taken in '43

[SiPo]

Please refer to this topic for more info on the use of Waffen SS shoulder boards.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=sipo

[Hardigan]

'If' there was a mix of Polizei and W-SS insignia please someone show me a period picture of a tunic with tresse and 'Polizei-shoulderboards' or a tunic without tresse and 'W-SS shoulderboards' .
I only believe in facts seen in period pictures and the theorie which I have is logical.

[NickG]

'If' there was a mix of Polizei and W-SS insignia please someone show me a period picture of a tunic with tresse and 'Polizei-shoulderboards' or a tunic without tresse and 'W-SS shoulderboards' .
I only believe in facts seen in period pictures and the theorie which I have is logical.

Well I should restate my hodge-podge comment...
Perhaps its better to state that SD-SiPo personnel probably wore either combination at the same time during the transition or later even... so regardless of date... (per your comment in post number 24 which actually proves my point!).
Sometimes when regulation changes trickle through (with a set date) the actual acceptance or rather use of such replacement insignia could be at a way later date because of supply probems or they just ignored it (like colored waffenfarbe SS visors) Who knows?

Or perhaps Mollo got the dates wrong but I don't think so, I'm quoting from references but the images posted show both styles Waffen SS and Polizei style insignia along with SD-SiPo sleeve insignia (raute) with various dates!
So my message is that I trust SD-SiPo uniforms with Waffen SS style insignia with tresse and Sd-Sipo uniforms with polizei style boards and no tresse . BOTH LIGIT COMBINATIONS!
This in response to post # 12, meaning nothing is wrong with that uniform with that style shoulder straps, that's my message...a mixture of the 2...

[Hardigan]

So we finally come to the point that the combination of the tunic in question has a wrong combination of insignia (shoulderboards) according to many pictures I saw of SD/Sipo .

It looks like a fine tunic with original attached insignia but it depends on the shoulderboards whether it is SD/Sipo or an other branche who also wore the blank patch.

[NickG]

So we finally come to the point that the combination of the tunic in question has a wrong combination of insignia (shoulderboards) according to many pictures I saw of SD/Sipo .

It looks like a fine tunic with original attached insignia but it depends on the shoulderboards whether it is SD/Sipo or an other branche who also wore the blank patch.

Everything on the uniform is correct and period as far as I can tell and if the tresse was removed to make it more in line with the post 1942 Polizei pattern look, who knows?
In any event the shoulderboards are early SiPo-SD and correct for SiPo-SD.

Basically they wore Algemeine SS rank insignia on black uniforms, switched to field gray and started wearing Waffen SS style shoulder boards with "toxic green" waffenfarbe as shown and to eliminate confusion (with Waffen SS gebirgsjagers?) finally switched to (or were supposed to switch to) Polizei style shoulder insignia and no tresse.
This uniform has the combination of the two because the tresse has been removed.

[Hardigan]

I don't understand why you keep on saying that this uniform is correct while there's no photographic evidence of this practice.
Every Sipo/Gestapo NCO and SD NCO I saw and where I know of which branche they came from have the combination of insignia I pointed out.


BTW the picture you posted in post 22 is Karl-Peter Berg as Sturmscharführer in de Sipo in '42