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**Leroy** · 05-23-2009, 11:15 AM

It is very interesting to see the thread that Glassmine linked. Wish the photos (which were apparently deleted in October, 2007) were still there.

Despite Strangelove's apparent exasperation, and despite the fact that the odds greatly favor this wrap being a fake, I still have seen nothing definitive.

The runes tab condemned by Strangelove was thought by another member (in that old thread) to have a good chance of being a real, pre-war quality tab, unusual to see on a wartime tunic. The "shiny" shoulder boards, also condemned, seem to be (at least according to what I have read here) a possibility.

Is there a "smoking gun"?

**Dr. Strangelove** · 05-23-2009, 11:37 AM

Leroy

Alright Leroy, prove Oscar Wilde was straight. He was about as straight as this Wrap.

**Bob Hritz** · 05-23-2009, 11:47 AM

Oscar Wilde?????? He would have screwed a snake if he could have held it straight enough.

Bob Hritz

**Leroy** · 05-23-2009, 11:47 AM

Another educational comment, Doctor? (By the way, old Oscar was as warped as you could get, but was a very bright fellow.)

Is the problem here that there is really nothing to say for sure that this piece is bad, only that the odds greatly favor it being bad? There's nothing wrong with that at all, as there are many things which opinions say are bad, but it would be nice to be a bit more solid than that.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 05-23-2009, 11:50 AM

Wow

Okay, if I spray painted fake across it with some pink Krylon would you admit it was bad?

**Leroy** · 05-23-2009, 12:02 PM

That would certainly wrap it up (no pun intended) for you, would it?

I have no idea if it is good or bad, but only would like to know if there is definitively something (other than the "odds") which makes it bad.

Sometimes, specifics are a hard thing to find.

**Chris_Werner** · 05-23-2009, 12:26 PM

When you cut it down to brass tacks, it's simple. The market will decide on authenticity when it's time to sell it. I could go and sell that humped up Heer cap I'm sending to Nick for a hands on, as an SS-NCO Cap, but my sense of honesty would not allow me to do so. IMO, I would have an ethical obligation to disclose that people like Nick and Ben have panned it.

This wrap is in the same catagory. It would be dishonest to sell it without disclosing that it has had questionable reviews on the forum from knowledgable people.

If full disclosure is made, and a collector chooses to make a call and buy it, at least they cannot complain that they were not told the "whole story." And if it turns out that the forum experts were wrong, someone just got a hell of a deal.

When this item was posted, I saw that Bill Shea was looking at it. For what it would sell for if real on Bill's site, I would think he could pay the asking price and still make a good profit.

I note that it still is for sale.

**Leroy** · 05-23-2009, 12:45 PM

Perfectly valid points by Chris. Any item, if posted before for discussion, should have that discussion "linked" to the sales thread.

This wrap is a perfect illustration of the dilemma facing collectors of exotic or rare items (or sometimes even mundane pieces). Without a specific "key" to what is wrong, all that can be stated is OPINION.

**MAL** · 05-23-2009, 01:00 PM

Glassmine

You are right it is the same tunic, and I do remove the pictures from photobucket not to clutter things up, but that's my prerogative and it's not done to fool anyone in the future. As to my posts of other items yes I have needed help on some things basic and some thing less common, and probably will again in the future. BUT ISN'T THAT WHAT THE FORUM IS FOR not just to show thing off to one another but to help new and inexperienced collectors to learn. I have amassed quite a nice collection with some choice items thanks to the help of many on this forum to which I am very grateful to, and I think you'll find I have removed a lot of those pictures as well. But I do see your point though about leaving the pictures on as a reference and will do so in the future posts as long as photobucket will allow it.

Now I am not selling this tunic, it dose not belong to me and never has, the new post is not mine. I did tell my friend at the time what was said, and he has had dealers look at it who have authenticated it, The member who It was originally bought from Anthony Hedges had this with a large collection and has had dealers authenticate it as original, I am hoping that he will post the reply he has sent me stating this, but after most of the remarks made so far I doubt if he will.

If herrwilson wants to put it back on to see for himself the thoughts of others then it is his right surely to do so if he believes it is original, and if it is what a good buy for someone.

Now I don't have the time for this but I am sure after all the CONSTRUCTIVE comments have been made then Mark will remove the tunic and carry on with the others he has for sale. The wrap is on hold now anyway untill this is sorted.

Mal ( not herrwillson )

**Mark C. Yerger** · 05-23-2009, 01:45 PM

114 posts and 4600 views for 1 tunic, that alone would tell me to walk away without reading till I was bored to tears. And I'm not even looking for one.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 05-23-2009, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Mark C. Yerger View Post

And I'm not even looking for one.

Are you so sure?

**Dr. Strangelove** · 05-23-2009, 03:02 PM

Mark

Mark needs one that is worn and fits. He has Dr's to battle !

**Scott A. Hess** · 05-23-2009, 04:15 PM

If anyone would like to see for comparison a REAL unissued EM SS Stug wrapper (not tooting my horn, but for learning purposes), I'll start a new thread and post pics soon as I rejoin. No, its not made of italian officer gaberdine, or the so called "italian" em wool, but a straight em piece made probably 43/44, and is constructed 100 percent consisent with another one looker and not often faked piece of SS clothing, if not, no need

**Leroy** · 05-23-2009, 04:53 PM

It would be nice to see anything that's real and be able to learn from it.

It would also be nice to see the "Italian cloth" fakes, should anyone have
saved photos of some, so "apples can be compared to apples."

The wrap which started all this reminds me of some of the ones posted here
years ago by an English collector who had what he believed to be a fabulous
collection of rare wraps, mostly SS. In his case, the sleeve eagles were the
thing which grabbed attention. They were identified very convincingly (I
believe by John Pic) as Seider copies, although the discussion grew pretty
heated and, of course, all the photos, pro and con, have now been deleted.

**Scott A. Hess** · 05-23-2009, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

It would be nice to see anything that's real and be able to learn from it.

It would also be nice to see the "Italian cloth" fakes, should anyone have
saved photos of some, so "apples can be compared to apples."

The wrap which started all this reminds me of some of the ones posted here
years ago by an English collector who had what he believed to be a fabulous
collection of rare wraps, mostly SS. In his case, the sleeve eagles were the
thing which grabbed attention. They were identified very convincingly (I
believe by John Pic) as Seider copies, although the discussion grew pretty
heated and, of course, all the photos, pro and con, have now been deleted.

I'll start the new thread early next week and take some photos. The wrapper is in my opinion real, unissued, and its "like new" condition has scared off a few people who saw just photos , however, as I an many other collecotors who collect in the "mint' arena can attest (Willi Zahn has some fantastic unissued and like new Luftpara pieces) if an item was/is stored properly from the start, and was handled with care down the line then their is no reason to shy away from believing such pieces to be real, although I do understand the caution. In my opinion the most valuable learning experiences have come from the many dealers/collectors who have allowed me to handle real items, and Im talking back a good 35 years ago. There is a very big plus/basis why the study/collection of mint mint is so important, it gives one the true "baseline" by which other pieces of the same vein and authenticity can be compared, thus allowing one to factor in what "use" and patina will do to the piece over the years. I know their is no substitute for "in the hand" but perhaps something can be passed along to those who simply havnt handled some of these real rare items. Its for me the only way of avoiding the fakes, as well as handling and examining every fake I can get ahold of. to see what new tricks are coming down the pike.

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SS stug wrapper on the estand

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