Originally posted by Peter Manzie
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... but, in reality, "IF IT GLOWS, IT GOES TO SALE!"
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Gentlemen:Originally posted by John Pic View Post
You may be right. I can only ask if the black light used was the proper wave length? There is a thread on use of the black light that mentions and posts a classic article in a 1991 Military Advisor. The author who does not believe in the black light test, makes it clear that the ultraviolet wave length must be 365nm. However, in that article in a subscript to a picture, he states that war time buillion thread WILL glow. If use is made of wave lengths of 385nm or 400nm, the results may not show a glow of the phosphate whitener. If in fact the huge textile collections mentioned by some of you that don't glow, and you can tell us as a fact that these cloth items were inspected by 365nm ultraviolet light with negative results, then I thank you for the confirmation and I stand respectfully corrected.Comment
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I have the article and read it at the time of its writing it was thought that colored threads that glowed may be fake ..im my experience the UV light cannot be an accurate test on dyed threads because Dyes contain chemicals which may cause slight glows. I only use it when white threads are present to test or on paper items like the unterlagen of an eagle.Comment
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John:Originally posted by John Pic View Post
You are correct, because as the author of the Military Advisor article says, even aniline dyes from the 19th century will glow under black light. White is the only color in the black light test relevant to our purposes. The next question is, does the white glow under 365 nano meters of ultra violet light? If so, when was the textile made? If the modern phosphate whiteners were introduced into the stream of German textile manufacture during the war, and that is the key question and confirmed in the article, then if it glows on a war time piece, so what. Obviously, a white textile that is clearly from the prewar period or earlier, and glows would be a fake.Comment
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As stated before every single proven wartime piece Ive examined using white threads ....this includes embroidered pieces,shoulder boards,eagles, white thread used to sew in liners etc. NEVER glowed.
While every proven post war piece has glowed.
Sorry but I cannont be swayed on this, Ive been doing the test since the early 1980s. If what you say is true why dont insignias employing white thread embroidery glow?Comment
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John:Originally posted by John Pic View Post
The only question that has to be asked, did you use a black light with the proper wave length; 365 nano meters? If you can state that as a fact, for every cloth item examined since the 80s, than the guy who wrote the Military Advisor article and myself, stand corrected. Please advise.Comment
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It is a typical characteristic of a fake bullion patch that the white thread on the back, under the paper backing, very likely glows. You will see this on most fake US WW2 bullion patches that were supposedly made in India or China during WW2, where there is no question that synthetics or brighteners were NEVER used, only local cotton and silk with vegetable dyes. It is a good indication of a Pakistan-made bullion patch.
I have some bullion cuff titles and eagles here - all no-glow from the front, but glow on the back. And I bought them all as low cost repros - $5-$10 a shot.
I guess what I am saying is, if you believe that WW2 era patches can glow on the back, then by all means, buy them. Buy them and be happy with them - but you can't sell them.Comment
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It doesnt matter what wave length it uses...it only takes one that causes white phosphates to glow...they are used all over in night clubs and by geologists. If you wear your tunic into a night club and the white threads glow ...guess what ....no good. Or if you take it into a dark closet with one of the little hand held lights sold on Ebay and they glow ...guess what...bad.
Sorry but wave lenghths have little to do with it although there are some blacklight bulbs sold that have no effect because they are not Ultraviolet.
The measure of the glow can also tell stories Ive had uniforms with slight glow in the white threads only upon further exam found it was due to exposure to cleaning agents...that glow is quite dull compaired to the glow coming from thread manufactured with the phosphates already in them.
Also a dull glow can come from fake insignias sprayed with the chemical used by hunters and available over the counter in sporting goods stores. This Chemical retards the glow on cloth so that when hunting you are less visible to animals that detect phosphate glow.Comment
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Don:Originally posted by checkit View Post
You are correct that any US insignia produced domestic or in theatre, should NEVER glow. The phosphate whiteners invented by the German chemical industry circa 1939, because of the war were not exported until after 1945. So a glow on a supposedly pre 1945 US textile is a dead giveaway. It really comes down to this: when were the modern phosphate whitener's invented? It is clearly a 20th century process. If as some in the collecting community maintain the invention occured after 1945, as claimed, then yes, any pre-1945 German textile with the color white, that exhibits Bright fluorescence when observed under 365 nm ultra violet light would be a posr war Fake. I believe as a fact of 20th century industrial history, that they were patented in Germany circa 1939. I could be dead wrong!
This could be easily resolved by our German members. It would be relatively easy for a German national to access the German Patent Office for historical verification one way or another. Are there any German members who could help the collecting community on a subject of intense interest?Comment
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Even if you proved a patent date, the question of when it became popular use may never be answered.
Big question is - where is the unquestionably authentic TR bullion insignia that glows? Where is the low end stuff like Heer Visor Wreaths and such, that someone's uncle brought back, glowing like a beacon? No, it's all supposedly authentic SS General collar tabs, cuff titles, sleeve eagles - the high-end stuff that was worth faking since the 60's, and everything imaginable that is being made in Pakistan today.
If someone wants to do a really worthwhile research project, they could get with the Smithsonian, West Point Museum, Eisenhower Museum or other insititutions that may have wholly intact groupings donated to them that were brought back by high ranking officers after WW2, with a mind towards researching materials and manufacturing techniques developed and actually used in Germany up to 1945.Comment
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Concerning this eagle,
If you examinate the 3 last picts the backside wire of the eagle is not glowing as mutch as the fake wire on the right. I put this fake wire into the test to compare.
So, to my mind the eagle wire don't glow, it's only very white, and it can be deceiver when you test it with black all around............Comment
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Then possibly it is original although the construction is inconsistant with any i have seenComment
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