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**Michael Fay** · 06-12-2009, 01:49 AM

well done

Originally posted by juoneen View Post

..

Juoneen,
that is one of the most enjoyable posts I have read in a long time.
There is much I want to comment on but for now I will just say....
well done.

**Mark C. Yerger** · 06-12-2009, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

I really enjoy owning my HR and it would be one of the last things to get rid of but being a Political collector first it would go before my Blood Orders and Coburg badge.

More rare and more "to them." IMO the whole ring fanatic thing is overblown as are their prices. It's a ring. I'd rather own bullion insignia, documents, etc over a piece of jewelry for the same money.

Also the design of the Coburg makes it among the most handsome badges also.

In hundreds of letters with Baum it was nothing he ever mentioned, showing where it ranked on the "matters" list, the same with any other combat commanders I've known. In Baum's case more so since his wife worked in an office and had contact with Himmler, both of them telling me he was a squirrel in person. The "hoopla" for them is more in the minds of dealers than those who got a ring.

Like many vets, Baum told me he assumed his family would keep his things after he was gone as other family members were in the military. I told him I thought some museum (a museum, not an Angolia BS set up) should have some item(s) due to his award of the Swords. Typical for the times, his kids ran to the auction dealers before the dirt had settled on his grave. Some, like Wisch's family, disconnected so far when they dumped all for money they didn't even keep an invitation from a senior years birthday gala. Nothing I'd personally be to proud of.

**phild** · 06-12-2009, 10:40 AM

It looks like the determining factor of how much esteem and value one puts on a HR is driven on whether they own one or not!

IMO the point about some piece of insignia like a collar tab or cuff title having more importance or being "cooler" (there is a real historical meaningful term!) can be turned around to say the a Himmler presentation item would always be more important than a scrap of cloth!

The Value of rarity is relative to the demand for a given item. There are thousands of FJ helmets around (most all bolted down in old collections....often dozens or more in one collection) and RKs and exoctic SS insignia items...all the same story and all mega priced...so HRs are not alone.

**Mark C. Yerger** · 06-12-2009, 11:31 AM

[quote=phild;3313602]It looks like the determining factor of how much esteem and value one puts on a HR is driven on whether they own one or not!

Not always. I've had 1, the KC who gave it to me had a major rift for years with his only child (a daughter) and no intention of leaving her anything in his will, period, property, money, or otherwise and he didn't. Nothing to do with politics or his service, just a stupid family argument that festered. I gave it back to her the year he died, told her what it was and it's guess value at that time (late 80s) to either keep or sell as she needed or saw fit. Collecting is neat and a piece of history, but not eveyone is total obsessed with money and "stuff." Can't take it with you and at times there is a right thing to do not involving "me, me, me".

**SSgentleman** · 06-12-2009, 11:37 AM

Mortal beings... the recent fiasco on HR ring is orchestrated behind the scenes by me in order to drive down the price of real and original rings...now is the time for me to buy them all nice minty/worn since nobody is interested... haha

Ok just kidding....

Jokes aside, I have a great personal attachment to HR ring as I value the significance of it, so this would go down to the grave with me

**phild** · 06-12-2009, 12:24 PM

[quote=Mark C. Yerger;3313669][quote=Not always. I've had 1, the KC who gave it to me had a major rift for years with his only child (a daughter) and no intention of leaving her anything in his will, period, property, money, or otherwise and he didn't. Nothing to do with politics or his service, just a stupid family argument that festered. I gave it back to her the year he died, told her what it was and it's guess value at that time (late 80s) to either keep or sell as she needed or saw fit. Collecting is neat and a piece of history, but not eveyone is total obsessed with money and "stuff." Can't take it with you and at times there is a right thing to do not involving "me, me, me".[/quote]

I personally agree with all that you have said above. It is not " about the money or the stuff" to twist a line from the movie "The Jerk".

I think that all collectors share some common characteristics (some may call them quirks or even psychological issues) and they can get downright unhealthy.

Everybody likes saying that it's all about the history, however I am always amazed how little so many long term collectors know about the same.

**juoneen** · 06-12-2009, 01:48 PM

Mr Fay.....I get a feeling of your dedication to collecting ..when ive seen the fine historically important items you have posted thru your obsessed hunting quite skillfully over decades...and im sure i am not alone to sense you also have a deeper appreciation not just for a third reich items rarity,or just their value in ducketts...but of their spiritual meaning of attachment to their original owners.

I feel you understand the pride the items like the TK ring, the coburg badge, or the blood orders represented to their original awardees during those hard post war years of serious uncertainty and their misguided search for a better life.

You , mr yerger, and a few dozen others on this forum represent truly the finest examples to emulate as collector historians (as we are not just collectors)..,(and those others with that "sixth sense" all different in their own peculiarities of interests related to militaria who post here)..but who represent the essence of the search for history ,originality, and truth, and that to me..even past those monetary aspects, is .. what this difficult hobby is really all about.Its much deeper than the bottom line, or the ego.

Even beyond rarity sake, its the documentation, and the preservation for future collectors to appreciate ..to personally have the opportunity to be free to own such possessions in hand, and not just to be seen in some museum behind glass ,that is paramount. More importantly to not forget that torrid time in history... that perminantly changed OUR world.

I still believe if hitler hadnt gone past poland , and stopped his conquests for say...25 years ,before he moved against the world and awoke the sleeping giant, we would certainly not be collecting these things presently, and also may never have had access or knowledge related to national socialistic memorabilia or its twisted ideals.
With that senario in mind ...we also may have ended up under the swatika flag, as hitler saw in his vision in a hospital bed during his recovery from a gas attack in the first war. This can be proven.. by the locating of the rough draft of the unpublished book 2 of mein kampf chosen to never be released, just found in recent years in a safe. This book is authentic, and ...actually outlined a for sure attack against the united states on our soil , and outlined Hitlers plans for the conquest of the world including the UK, japan, and even the russians.

Let us summise : IF.. the holocaust had been postponed...and the bomb had wisely been developed for hitler by the greatest jewish minds (instead of our government)...who possibly hadnt been forced at that time to leave germany because of hitlers stupidity of choice to oppress this race... We may now all be doing something else more stupid , like maybe collecting coins or stamps. Or maybe even ..working as slave laborers somewhere , or more likely helplessly sitting in a death camp somewhere in our own country waiting for our turn in the shower. Happy hunting.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 06-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by juoneen View Post

I honestly believe sometimes when i watch the lord of the rings , that the story is about the totenkopf ring, as the story line is spookily reminiscently parrellel.(my own opinion)

You share the opinion of many . . . Tolkien penned this work during WW2 as a sequel to the Hobbit, a better novel, in my opinion, that he had written in the late 30's. Some actually argue that Tolkien perceived himself as Gandalf, and Sauron as Hitler or the Nazi's (Himmler?), leading the forces of good to do battle with evil . . . doubtlessly, a fantasy of epical proportion. It almost goes without saying that one could become easily wrapped up in it's (and other similar?

) trappings . . .

I for one find the TK and it's story compelling, but I have found far more personal satisfaction elsewhere. Considering the currently perceived expectations of value in such an item, it would be effortless for me to find an alternative way to spend my money. But to each his own - when it comes down to it, we all have certain things that we cherish more than others, don't we?

jouneen and sgstandard - I have come recognize this comment being made elsewhere: enjoy what you collect. Outside of this, who cares what anyone else will tell you? It's great to see what someone enjoys, and takes the time to share with others . . .

Brad

**Rob E.** · 06-12-2009, 04:39 PM

juoneen,

Your passion is very refreshing.

**Hofstetter** · 06-12-2009, 04:43 PM

I

**ErichS** · 06-12-2009, 05:09 PM

One of the most special things to me about the HR is that they were only borrowed by the recipient and had to be returned eventually to the SS. As far as I know it's the only award not allowed to be retained by the family of the recipient after their death. To me the history behind the piece is as important as the piece.

**USGI** · 06-12-2009, 05:30 PM

Honor Rings are overblown in value and importance IMO, by dealers to boost prices for profit.

**phild** · 06-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by USGI View Post

Honor Rings are overblown in value and importance IMO, by dealers to boost prices for profit.

More so than any other high 4 figure or low 5 figure 3rd Reich item? Please explain why you think that an HR should be worth less than a chained SS dagger or a garden variety FJ helmet?

**USGI** · 06-12-2009, 08:36 PM

SS chained daggers are overpriced as well as FJ helmets, I like them and they are worth collecting and preserving, I just can't see paying 8-10K. I like Honor Rings and they are just as collectible I just can't see paying 8-15K . I looked at a copy of the 1935 SS officer list I have the other night and page after page of names were full of TK ring awards, it seemed as if every Tom, Dick and Harry had one. It really kind of hit me, so many TK rings but only a few Blood Orders and Coburg badges. Answer this question, why is a TK ring worth more than a Blood Order or Coburg badge? What I'm trying to say is, Honor rings aren't as rare as people want you to believe.

I love German militaria, I just think prices are artificially inflated by investors and it's hurting folks like us who love these items for the history not for the finacial gain.

**sgstandard** · 06-15-2009, 02:32 PM

Rings

I don't believe it's so much about rarity, as it is about mystique. Of course, the Coburg badge and Blood Order CERTAINLY have their share of mystique, and were probably PERSONALLY prized by the recipients more than the TK Ring. But rings historically have been thought to possess magical powers, which is portrayed in the Wagnerian operas that Hitler was so fond of. Plus, the concept of bestowal of an actual military award in the form of jewelry is certainly unique, at least in modern warfare. (As far as I know)

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