Totenkopf X-ray analysis

[PMan]

I have been to Dave’s house and seen first hand what he is doing. It is pure genius! [B][U]The only ones who would oppose such technology are those with something to fear.

Nick, You are spot on, as they like to say on the forum. It is "pure genius" from the business standpoint. Once Dave has everything squared away, I would guess $200 per evaluation would be right in line. And "fear", yes indead. I fear I am now going to pay to have Dave's X-Ray papers accompanying any eagle and skull I might sell. Maybe to the tune of $200 a pop. Dave will have "a piece of the action" as we say in Chicago.
Oh well..so be it, I guess? Good for Dave. You,ve already been to his house. Are you an investor...are there stock options? Can I get a piece of the action too? What's the name of the new company? Any ground floor opportunities?

[11C]

SS Totenkopf rings and helmet decals have both been successfully measured, the helmet decal results will be in a soon to be released publication

David

What's the composition of the ring? (sorry I missed the previous post)

[Fritz]

I think that this method can only be a tool in order to find a indication. It will never be a "proof machine". These methods are being used by museums on very old stuff (3000BC) since years and the results are not considered to be a proof either way. The musuems have plenty of money for this and that testing and they still fail every now and then.

Especially in the modern times the production volumes were so high that many variations must exist. Naturally when you find an alloy that wasn't known back then you have a proof, but the legit variations must be countless.


I take it that Peter wants to warn people not to consider that technique to be the final soloution. And I agree.

Beside that it is quite interesting to see the composition of such items. Still, another risk is that you can have an alloy made in exactly these configurations, not a thing you do in 5 minutes but something that can be done. And by that you will get closer to the "original" weight of the period item, so there is also a risk in that technique.

Cheers

Fritz

[PMan]

I think that this method can only be a tool in order to find a indication. It will never be a "proof machine". These methods are being used by museums on very old stuff (3000BC) since years and the results are not considered to be a proof either way. The musuems have plenty of money for this and that testing and they still fail every now and then.

Especially in the modern times the production volumes were so high that many variations must exist. Naturally when you find an alloy that wasn't known back then you have a proof, but the legit variations must be countless.


I take it that Peter wants to warn people not to consider that technique to be the final soloution. And I agree.

Beside that it is quite interesting to see the composition of such items. Still, another risk is that you can have an alloy made in exactly these configurations, not a thing you do in 5 minutes but something that can be done. And by that you will get closer to the "original" weight of the period item, so there is also a risk in that technique.

Cheers

Fritz

Fritz,
With the paranoia levels being what they are in this hobby, this method has the potential of having the final word. Who is going to argue with a pie chart? I hope the data tolerances are such that it truely is a good judge. As mentioned in my previous post, IMO, if accepted, this technology will cost you if and when you decide to sell. If you don't subscribe, you will get less. Just like what happened with coin and sportcard grading.

[gj dettore]

One of my concerns of posting the scientific analysis of particular items is that fakers can use the results as recipes for producing their refined goods. A reverse engineering of sorts. So in the final analysis both metallurgical /chemical composition and a hands on inspection by a knowledgeable person would be needed to confirm or deny an item for its authenticity.

[Robert H]

But no chance with original cloth that was getting tailored post war inclusiv with old original thread, this is more the main concern with tunics for my view. I know well about cloth ball finds in Germany in the last decade. When something like this shows up, the interest and offers are huge. I also remember a bed linen of pea pattern camo cloth ...

[Bob Hritz]

Where do I get one of these machines?

I think the personal knowledge is most necessary. Who tells the machine which one is authentic to set the standards? You guessed it: the expert!

Bob Hritz

[NTZ]

Nick, You are spot on, as they like to say on the forum. It is "pure genius" from the business standpoint. Once Dave has everything squared away, I would guess $200 per evaluation would be right in line. And "fear", yes indead. I fear I am now going to pay to have Dave's X-Ray papers accompanying any eagle and skull I might sell. Maybe to the tune of $200 a pop. Dave will have "a piece of the action" as we say in Chicago.
Oh well..so be it, I guess? Good for Dave. You,ve already been to his house. Are you an investor...are there stock options? Can I get a piece of the action too? What's the name of the new company? Any ground floor opportunities?

Peter you are too funny. Hey what ever happened to capitalism? Oops, sorry we are a socialist society now. If Dave makes money and helps collectors along the way more power too him. No I am not an investor. Dave did not give me that option although I am open to offers.

[NTZ]

But no chance with original cloth that was getting tailored post war inclusiv with old original thread, this is more the main concern with tunics for my view. I know well about cloth ball finds in Germany in the last decade. When something like this shows up, the interest and offers are huge. I also remember a bed linen of pea pattern camo cloth ...

100% right. That is the problem. But if it became inexpensive enough you could at least rule out certain items with materials of post 1945 origin.

[PMan]

Where do I get one of these machines?

I think the personal knowledge is most necessary. Who tells the machine which one is authentic to set the standards? You guessed it: the expert!

Bob Hritz

We've already placed our order for one and the service will be free. We don't like monopolies.

[NTZ]

Guys some of you a missing the advantage here. Look at camo helmets. They are consistently debated and contested. What if you could analyze the metal content (yes period paint had a metal content) of lids with impeccable provenance. I am talking straight from the vet’s hands, first person camos. Now you find one that looks great but does not contain the known composition of period paint. Well as good as these things have gotten over the years not even the “experts” agree most of the time. This would certainly be an aid. Again with decals and metals. They sky is the limit. As long as the items used at the base are 100% right as rain the results would be pretty conclusive.

[Anders S]

We've already placed our order for one and the service will be free. We don't like monopolies.

Make sure you'll get the model which is able to spot manganese in small quantities.

[25thlight]

Don't you think you're over-reacting a bit? Seriously... If this method can be proven to be reliable and the differences between original and reproduction items are significant and consistent enough to base a solid opinion on, wouldn't you support using this to help prevent people from getting burned?

Please don't take what I said out of context. I'm not stating that every book out there is useless and of course we value the opinions of experienced, honest members of this and other forums, but you can't tell me that every book written on the subject of collecting 3rd Reich militaria over the last 30+ years nor every opinion of every experienced collector has been 100% accurate and without any fault.

I don't understand the hostility and attitude you're presenting here. If there were a scientific method which - after being scrutinized and tested multiple times proves to be accurate beyond doubt - wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?

I would see this as an asset to the hobby; a way to help prevent people from getting burned on fakes... wouldn't that be a good thing?

Rob

I for one would like to thank Dave for taking the time and resources to do this endeavor.
I think what some are failing to understand is the huge difference in materials used in period originals compared to modern fakes.
Lets use helmets as an example, this technology would easily pick up on the differences between period or modern fakes on parts such as decal, paint and even helmet shell composition.
Badges and insignia, we all know there were metals and combinations of metals being used that havent been used since.
"Will this technology tell if insignia is original to a tunic?", I appreciate the humor, thats a real knee slapper!!!
This machine and technology cost money, it isn't free so why wouldn't you charge for scans? Do you work for free? Can you get x-rays at your doctors office for free?, is this another joke?, I'm sorry I missed this one.
I wouldn't give the nay sayer(s) the time of day, it's a comprehension issue you wont be able to fix over the internet.
Thanks for sharing this information Dave.
Eddie

[Bob Hritz]

I have no complaints. I would love to see paint tested on camo helmets. This would rule out paint compositions that were not available during the time. Paint manufacturers have wonderful records and the patents for pigments are available, if one does the research. For decals and paint, I am really excited. I would think there is a way to create a databank of every known paint that was used in Europe prior to the introduction of post-war polymers.

As for medals and badges and metallic insignia, you still must know which is original to set a databank for comparison. Therefore, you must rely on the current knowledge of those with expertise.

Bob Hritz

[Panzer Rob]

As for medals and badges and metallic insignia, you still must know which is original to set a databank for comparison. Therefore, you must rely on the current knowledge of those with expertise.

Bob Hritz

Ah yes, Bob... But what if some of these self proclaimed experts declare that a badge is original, yet exhibits near-exact composition of a know reproduction (and the composition is drastically different from a known

Does that still make it good?

Rob