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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    Question on Foreign Volunteers

    Am not too well-versed on SS uniform regs, and was wondering about the conventions for wearing the SS runes above the left pocket. My understanding is that this was authorized for Germans who were attached to, and wore the non SS-runes collar tab of, a foreign volunteer unit. Under these circumstances, would the soldier still wear a volunteer shield, or would that only be if he was truly a foreign volunteer? And were the runes worn over the pocket on the field uniform, or only on a dress uniform?

    I saw a hoaked-up Heer police uniform with SS runes over the pocket - looked East German to me - and was wondering what the real scoop was on the use of this insignia.

    Was also wondering if SS NCO's ever wore an officer's dark green collar on their uniforms. I saw a picture in a Time-Lofe book that showed a 1943 large group of NCO's in 1943, and it looks like some have a dark collar.
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    #2
    Officially, only true "Germanic peoples" could wear the runes... though exceptions were not uncommon (i.e. Wallonie or Charlemagne).

    Comment

      #3
      Primarily the SS runic pocket patch was worn by policemen who were members of the SS. All German police formations came under the Interior Ministry, headed by Himmler, Reichsfuhrer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei. Later Germans who were assigned to foreign volunteer units could either wear the SS runic collar tab, or to be in sync with the foreigners in the unit, wear the foreign volunteer collar tab. If they were a member of the SS, then they could also wear the SS runic pocket patch to show their membership.

      On the other question of dark-green wool collars being worn by SS NCOs, green collars were standard on early tunics. Many SS NCOs took issued tunics without the dark-green collars and had them tailored to include the dark-green wool collar, tunic shortening, removal of the belt hook holes, and additional interior padding, etc. My friend has an early SS-Hauptscharfuhrer from the LSSAH with a dark-green wool collar, an SS-Rottenfuhrer of Signals tunic with the dark-green collar, also from the LSSAH, etc.

      Bob

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by checkit View Post
        Am not too well-versed on SS uniform regs, and was wondering about the conventions for wearing the SS runes above the left pocket. My understanding is that this was authorized for Germans who were attached to, and wore the non SS-runes collar tab of, a foreign volunteer unit. Under these circumstances, would the soldier still wear a volunteer shield,
        The runes were worn worn below the left breast pocket by members of the SS when wearing a uniform that didn't bear the rune tab ... i.e. members of the Police or German/Germanic SS members of foreign volunteer units when wearing the unit tab. These members were also supposed to wear the relevant unit shield, German cadre members were entitled to wear their previous unit cufftitle if their new unit didn't have one.

        Members of the SD, SiPo and the various Hauptamts who all wore the blank tab didn't wear the runes below their pocket, likewise members of the SS-Totenkopf units.

        Ian.

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          #5
          Some formations demanded their national insignia instead of the runes.
          Frw. legion Norwegen was one of these though other pure norwegian formations as SS skijagerbatalion Norge used the runes.

          I guess some other like baltic formations did NOT have the permission to use the runes though some did not follow regulations.

          Comment

            #6
            Many years ago Bill Shea (about the time of MAX III, the first show in Baltimore) picked up an Estonian grouping. It contained two overseas caps, two pair of trousers, two greatcoats and two tunics. One tunic was an SS-Obersturmfuhrer and had the Estonian collar tab and the other tunic was an SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer with the runic collar tab. Hard to say whether it was authorized or just a personal preference.

            Bob

            Comment

              #7
              The first draft of Ukrainian volunteers for Galicia division received tunics with runic tabs on them. Many of them demanded that they get the lion collar tab, as they had more pride in it.

              Comment

                #8
                Many years ago Bill Shea (about the time of MAX III, the first show in Baltimore) picked up an Estonian grouping. It contained two overseas caps, two pair of trousers, two greatcoats and two tunics. One tunic was an SS-Obersturmfuhrer and had the Estonian collar tab and the other tunic was an SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer with the runic collar tab. Hard to say whether it was authorized or just a personal preference.

                Bob
                Hauptsturmführer`s tunic [belonged to Johannes Ristikivi(as far as I have understood), 12.1.1914 Viljandimaa Estonia -22.12.1990 Södertälje Sweden] has been posted here, but does anybody has photos of the other items? Did the greatcoats had also national sleeve shields? Would be nice to see photos if someone has them and is willing to share them.
                Regards
                k.

                In the beginning of the formation of Estonian Legion, Estonians were not allowed to use the runes. Later some men(especially soldiers in Btl. Narva), after receiving the Estonian collar tabs, cut the runes out and attached them to the breast. As far as I have seen the pictures, that was mainly practiced by Narva soldiers. IMO these dudes did it just to be more flashy. They had the reputation of being quite proud and sometimes arrogant soldiers, especially the "old ones" who had been in the battalion since the beginning.

                Just remembered concerning flashy behavior. One Narva vet. told that in the Heidelager training camp in 1943 some men made fake awards from aluminium (especially IAB-s) and wore them on the holidays and evenings out from the camp. Sorry for offtopic.

                Btl."Narva" member in Estonia in 1944.
                Last edited by kass; 01-14-2009, 03:27 PM.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post
                  Many years ago Bill Shea (about the time of MAX III, the first show in Baltimore) picked up an Estonian grouping. It contained two overseas caps, two pair of trousers, two greatcoats and two tunics. One tunic was an SS-Obersturmfuhrer and had the Estonian collar tab and the other tunic was an SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer with the runic collar tab. Hard to say whether it was authorized or just a personal preference.

                  Bob
                  Some of those items are shown in Beaver's book if I'm not mistaken!

                  Comment

                    #10
                    There were exceptions to the rules and it was pointed out some foreign volunteers were allowed to wear the runes; such was the case of Spanish Waffen SS volunteers.

                    Comment

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