Waffen SS Visor - pre war? - opinions

[bnz. 42]

in one picture it had the early metal TK badge. In other pics, the final pattern.

You are looking at Kepi in the "Visors: SS, Army, Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarine" section.
Choose "Soft Caps: Army, SS, Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarine" (from drop-down menu) + "Search" button.

[Beobachter]

Wss cap

This one is 100 % unquestionable.

Price is also interesting.

All the best,

Beobachter

[NTZ]

I agree 100% with DKNYC71’s hypothesis. The majority of fakes tend to be maker marked also.

[N.C. Wyeth]

My point is that it would probably be better to go with something more textbook, and something that would be a more of an easy sell, if and when one decided to part with the cap. One would be wise to simply wait, collect more funds, and purchase something more textbook and better condition. Which in time would be a better collecting item and a better investment. And not have something which down the road will be hard to move and require explenation to sell.

Just my humble opinion based on many years of collecting high end items.

Cheers,
Dave.

Dave,

Your point and opinion is completely valid, and very well understood - nothing wrong with it at all.

The reason I commented was simply to offer an alternative perspective - if someone were not so concerned about the non-Kleiderklasse variation of a cap, didn't have the funds it takes to purchase something in better condition, and really didn't care about collecting for "investment" purpose (this whole concept of "collecting for investment purposes" is really getting out of hand . . .), then maybe this cap could deserve a better look - be it good or bad. Not everyone needs to collect in the hopes of selling down the road for profit - some of us just enjoy the idea of collecting, and the costs and potential profit or loss associated with that enjoyment are not so highly regarded.

Not eveyone will be blessed with the ability to collect high-end items - let's not forget to help the less-fortunate out around here as well . . .

This my REALLY humble opinion, it seems . . .

Brad

[Dr. Strangelove]

hood up

Well we have to see shots with the hood up and take a look at the restoration in order to get a better idea, I can tell you that the Moths all agreed, they loved it! Still if it's real and within your budget it would display good from a few feet or on a Mannequinn. Lovely insignia.

[DKNYC71]

Waffen SS Visor - pre war? - opinions

Dave,

Your point and opinion is completely valid, and very well understood - nothing wrong with it at all.

The reason I commented was simply to offer an alternative perspective - if someone were not so concerned about the non-Kleiderklasse variation of a cap, didn't have the funds it takes to purchase something in better condition, and really didn't care about collecting for "investment" purpose (this whole concept of "collecting for investment purposes" is really getting out of hand . . .), then maybe this cap could deserve a better look - be it good or bad. Not everyone needs to collect in the hopes of selling down the road for profit - some of us just enjoy the idea of collecting, and the costs and potential profit or loss associated with that enjoyment are not so highly regarded.

Not eveyone will be blessed with the ability to collect high-end items - let's not forget to help the less-fortunate out around here as well . . .

This my REALLY humble opinion, it seems . . .

Brad

Brad,

I respect your opinion and standpoint. To eleborate a bit more on my standpoint, I would like to state the following:

1. Collecting should not be solely for investment purposes, absolutely true, however, we should not neglect the fact that down the road we will either sell or trade items from our collection, even if it is in 5 days, 5 years, or 50 years. We are all but temporary custodians of what we collect. This being said, why burden ourselves with "troubled" items and/or questionable items which will cause dificulty in "moving" whenever that time comes.

2. Items which are not standard textbook will always cause doubt and questions (it certainly does not help that aprox 95% of all fake caps have trademark logos, and aprox 95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type, and certainly have no trademark logos).

3. Why pay 5K for a troubled item, when it is better to wait a year or two, save up more money and purchase quality. At the end, our collections are based on quality and not quantity, and certainly not on "convincing ourselves" of having high-end items just because we manged to purchase them at a low price, when going into the deal we know there are problems with the item.

4. If all I had is 5K to spend on a collectable, I would not attempt to purchase troubled items which would normaly commend twice the value without the "problems and/or controversy". There are plenty of good textbook SS items which can be had for that value, and certainly plenty of TR items which are good, 'problem-free' which can be purchased.

And lastly, in regard to this hat, I would not pay more than the value of its insignia (if ofcourse it is real), that would be between 1.5K - 1.7K. The hat itself is worthless to me with all the problems including: not being a standard Kleiderkasse type, questionable authenticy, heavy mothing, and a re-stiched visor. In other words, to me, this hat is wothless junk. If one would start placing such "quality" in a collection, pretty soon the entire collection would become a joke.

Again, this is my humble opinion based on my knoweldge and experience, with no offence to anyone here.

Cheers,
Dave.

[bnz. 42]

2. Items which are not standard textbook will always cause doubt and questions (it certainly does not help that aprox 95% of all fake caps have trademark logos, and aprox 95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type, and certainly have no trademark logos).

And lastly, in regard to this hat, I would not pay more than the value of its insignia (if ofcourse it is real), that would be between 1.5K - 1.7K. The hat itself is worthless to me with all the problems including: not being a standard Kleiderkasse type, questionable authenticy, heavy mothing, and a re-stiched visor. In other words, to me, this hat is wothless junk. If one would start placing such "quality" in a collection, pretty soon the entire collection would become a joke.

Dave,
So you think this cap is fake just because it has a logo? Or there is something else that you don't like in this cap? I am just trying to follow your logic and understand correctly why you called this cap "worthless junk". In your opinion all W-SS caps with logos are fake?
You stated that "95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type". Where did this number come from? I would think that SS-officers, same as Army officers, preferred private purchase uniforms, better quality material + custom, individually made.
Interesting that if "95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type", then why "95% of all fake caps have trademark logos"? Wouldn't it to be easier for fakers to make caps with no trademark logos?

[DKNYC71]

Waffen SS Visor - pre war? - opinions

Dave,
So you think this cap is fake just because it has a logo? Or there is something else that you don't like in this cap? I am just trying to follow your logic and understand correctly why you called this cap "worthless junk". In your opinion all W-SS caps with logos are fake?
You stated that "95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type". Where did this number come from? I would think that SS-officers, same as Army officers, preferred private purchase uniforms, better quality material + custom, individually made.
Interesting that if "95% of original caps are KleiderKasse type", then why "95% of all fake caps have trademark logos"? Wouldn't it to be easier for fakers to make caps with no trademark logos?

Notice, I did not say the cap was worthless junk because it is fake, I clearly pointed out that due to the "non-KleiderKlasse version", due to condition, and to the re-stiched bill, it is junk. No serious SS collector would ever put something like this in their collection. You ask where I obtained my assesment of KleiderKlasse vs. Not, easy, experience and exposure. All 100% authenticated SS Officer visors I have ever observed in the past 25 years were KleiderKlasse except for 2 of them. This is not just my opinion and experience, but that of many very series and astute collectors both here and abroad. You ask about "Private Purchase caps", well even shops in Germany during the war followed SS guidelines, and as a whole elected to adhere to them. If you desire to test this postulation right here on the forum, you are welcome to search this forum for threads depiting 100% authentic SS visors, such as those posted by Mike Davis, Doug O, and others. You would be hard pressed to find SS Officer Visors with company trade mark logos. Again, I have only observed 2 in my 25 years of collecting that I knew 100% were original, and they also did not have re-sewn bills, sweatbands, and serve as a feeding frenzy for moth.

[bnz. 42]

Notice, I did not say the cap was worthless junk because it is fake, I clearly pointed out that due to the "non-KleiderKlasse version", due to condition, and to the re-stiched bill, it is junk. No serious SS collector would ever put something like this in their collection. You ask where I obtained my assesment of KleiderKlasse vs. Not, easy, experience and exposure. All 100% authenticated SS Officer visors I have ever observed in the past 25 years were KleiderKlasse except for 2 of them. This is not just my opinion and experience, but that of many very series and astute collectors both here and abroad. You ask about "Private Purchase caps", well even shops in Germany during the war followed SS guidelines, and as a whole elected to adhere to them. If you desire to test this postulation right here on the forum, you are welcome to search this forum for threads depiting 100% authentic SS visors, such as those posted by Mike Davis, Doug O, and others. You would be hard pressed to find SS Officer Visors with company trade mark logos. Again, I have only observed 2 in my 25 years of collecting that I knew 100% were original, and they also did not have re-sewn bills, sweatbands, and serve as a feeding frenzy for moth.

Excuse me but when you said that the cap "worthless junk" and you "would not pay more than the value of its insignia" and before: "Even in such condition, a cap like this would easily fetch between 8K - 8.5K (Kleiderkasse type)" - it clearly sounds like it is fake to you. Now I am just trying to understand why you think it is "junk". If it had no logo - then it is not junk, if it has a logo then it is junk? Wow.

You also said: "I think I know why it is priced below market value. Reason being is that it has a trade mark logo."
I am wondering, if original visors with logos are so rare, then why should be they less desirable or priced below market value?

May I ask you, are you really expert? If so, what whould you say about this visor?:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=281042

[besslein]

in the past i have own a cap with marker logo from Stettin, I have got it from vet family and the orginal owner was medical officer,how some from us know in Sttetin was a big Waffen SS medical unit,so for sure the owner has bought hes cap in one from "hats shops" or the cap was made on hes order but.................... still with marker logo.

[DKNYC71]

Waffen SS Visor - pre war? - opinions

Excuse me but when you said that the cap "worthless junk" and you "would not pay more than the value of its insignia" and before: "Even in such condition, a cap like this would easily fetch between 8K - 8.5K (Kleiderkasse type)" - it clearly sounds like it is fake to you. Now I am just trying to understand why you think it is "junk". If it had no logo - then it is not junk, if it has a logo then it is junk? Wow.

You also said: "I think I know why it is priced below market value. Reason being is that it has a trade mark logo."
I am wondering, if original visors with logos are so rare, then why should be they less desirable or priced below market value?

May I ask you, are you really expert? If so, what whould you say about this visor?:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=281042

This hat is JUNK to me because a combination of all the reasons I have mentioned combined. It is the sum of all "prima-facie evidence" present with this hat. Yes, a Kleiderkasse cap in similar mothed condition would fetch around 8K, however without a re-stiched visor that is, but still mothed.

On the other hand, if I touched a soft spot, and your collection contains such specimens, I certainly did not intend to hurt your feelings, again, I stated this as being my opinion.

I will not cast judgement on your hat, as you are asking me to do in your post above. However, if you desire a link or two for various threads on this forum to further illustrate my point, I will gladly oblige.

I WILL STATE AGAIN, I AM NOT POSTULATING THE HAT IS FAKE, JUST A VERY LOW GRADE ITEM, UNWORTHY OF ANY SERIES COLLECTION.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Dennis J]

Waffen ss visor-pre war?-opnions

I think that the cap is ok but I am not a ss cap expert but I have bought some real good orig. items from these people and everything I bought was 100% orig. and I have seen other ss items they have sold and the collectors that bought them were very pleased.Jmo

Happy Holidays
Dennis J

[Dr. Strangelove]

Hat

If anyone buys that hat put it in a plastic bag and stick it in a freezer for awhile. That might kill any vermin remaining. SS Visors with logos exsist it is just that most are fake. BNZ you linked to a hat that looked great, logo or no logo.

[DKNYC71]

Waffen SS Visor - pre war? - opinions

I will state again, that I do believe that SS logo hats exist, I had seen 2 originals. But the majority of SS logo hats on the market are FAKE. I am not stating this hat is FAKE. The all-around low quality grade of this visor, combined with the "non-Kleiderkasse stigma" would prevent me from ever adding something like this to my collection. And I would certainly advise anyone to stay away from this sort of junk.

[dhunter93]

I will state again, that I do believe that SS logo hats exist, I had seen 2 originals. But the majority of SS logo hats on the market are FAKE. I am not stating this hat is FAKE. The all-around low quality grade of this visor, combined with the "non-Kleiderkasse stigma" would prevent me from ever adding something like this to my collection. And I would certainly advise anyone to stay away from this sort of junk.

Please post one of you SS visors (inside also) so we can see what an investment grade visor cap should look like..Thanks