SS Stug Beret At MAX Show?

[tgn]

Dr. Snyder???

???

[PMan]

Dr. Distenhorst

No Ludwig, he is not a Dr.

The guy in question is Dr. Ronald A. Distelhorst.

Cheers, Ade.

I missed the part about a question regarding Dr. Distelhorst. What are you reffering to???? Is there "code" talking going on???
Peter

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Peter, no code talking going on. "In question" is simply a figure of speech in English. Ludwig did not realise who the seller was, I was putting him right.

Cheers, Ade.

[Richard P]

Well, it took a while but it seems that things have been sort of sorted out now.
It was not an SS stug beret, but an SS panzer beret.

It was Kris Anderson that had it, and not Distelhorst.
And now we have photos and where its at thanks to B. N Singer.

Obviously I will have to address it also on the infamous SS beret insignia thread...ha ha.
When the other thread started, I could not get much of anyone to concede that there was an off white version of both the eagle and skull. Times may be a changing.

QUOTE TOM (tgn) If you look closely at the eagle and skull, they are both embroidered with the same WHITE thread. And both are zig-zag stitched onto the beret tam with the same black thread. Unquestionably a real example...AND

QUOTE B. N. SINGER: Well the eagle is certainly an anomaly but the skull is "textbook" IMHO.

I assume that at least two of you are now on board that the off white insignia exists. The skull on this beret is near identical to the one on my SS stug beret piece. If experienced collectors are willing to give this eagle a break, mine should be a shoe in. The insignia on my piece is identically sewn as on this beret.

I will go more in depth on the old thread. Here is a link to the old thread in case you need to be put to sleep. LINK: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...SS+beret+skull

I agree that the beret is real, the skull is good, the eagle looks like a cartoon eagle, but if there is a bunch of collectors that have first hand knowledge of this berets discovery and history and they are willing to make sworn depositions...then it must be real.

My off white Stug insignia.

[jimt]

beret

The beret skull is original for sure, I have seen this pattern direct from Vet sources.....

[Richard P]

Jim,

Many thanks for weighing in. I agree with you on the skull. The only thing I want to really make clear is that it is embroidered in off white as stated by Tom and Bryon, whom I believe have seen it, or an identical one in person. It is indeed identical to the pattern shown by Mike Davis in the "Beret Skull" thread, except the skull he showed was embroidered in the silver-gray thread. That was a large point of contention before, in that only the silver-gray were accepted as original.

Richard

[jacquesf]

Here are two different berets on period pictures, the insignia on one looks grey and one off white, courtesy of first Erich Queen

[jacquesf]

and courtesy Frank Rygaard

[tgn]

The beret skull is original for sure, I have seen this pattern direct from Vet sources.....

OK, so now we all agree that the skull on this beret is original. But what about the peculiar eagle? Someone stated that they would not believe the eagle unless they saw one in a period photo. That would be conclusive, but short of that we can use some deductive reasoning to help ascertain its originality.

First, the thread used to embroider the eagle and skull are the same. If someone made the eagle postwar, where did he get the thread? And if he was clever enough to somehow match the thread, why wouldn't he have been clever enough to have a more accepted eagle embroidered? The Mollo books had already been published and clearly show what a "normal" beret eagle looks like. And where did he get a blank beret tam to put this together? Remember, both the skull and eagle were sewn onto the tam at the same time.

And even more interesting is the fact that another beret with the identical eagle, sewn onto the tam in the exact same way, turned up at a Lansing show in the late 70's/early 80's. This beret is in very worn condition.

So what, some clever fellow had two blank tams and two original skulls, had two "cartoon" eagles made, zig-zag stiched them onto the tams, but then waited 30 years between selling the first one and the second one? Oh, and in both cases he sold them for less than what a blank tam and original skull were worth. Very clever faker indeed!

BTW, who says there are no original photos showing this eagle? In most of the photos of berets being worn, the whole detail of the eagle can't be seen anyways. Who says some of them don't already show this type eagle...

Unless you have some "inside" information, this eagle can not be dismissed as some fantasy fake just because it doesn't match what we think they should look like.

Tom

[Bob Hritz]

How much is the beret?

Are photos of the other beret, with the unusual eagle available?

One cannot dismiss something because we have not seen it in photos. I agree with TGN that the eagles are very difficult to see, in full detail, in period photos. There are variances within the same maker of eagles and there are variant patterns in the skulls. To date, I am waiting to hear difinitive evidence on which beret insignia are original (other than the obvious fakes) and which are not. Do we know if there are multiple makers of beret insignia?

I am not crazy about the eagle's appearance, but would have that beret in my collection.

Bob Hritz

[PMan]

OK, so now we all agree that the skull on this beret is original. But what about the peculiar eagle? Someone stated that they would not believe the eagle unless they saw one in a period photo. That would be conclusive, but short of that we can use some deductive reasoning to help ascertain its originality.

First, the thread used to embroider the eagle and skull are the same. If someone made the eagle postwar, where did he get the thread? And if he was clever enough to somehow match the thread, why wouldn't he have been clever enough to have a more accepted eagle embroidered? The Mollo books had already been published and clearly show what a "normal" beret eagle looks like. And where did he get a blank beret tam to put this together? Remember, both the skull and eagle were sewn onto the tam at the same time.

And even more interesting is the fact that another beret with the identical eagle, sewn onto the tam in the exact same way, turned up at a Lansing show in the late 70's/early 80's. This beret is in very worn condition.

So what, some clever fellow had two blank tams and two original skulls, had two "cartoon" eagles made, zig-zag stiched them onto the tams, but then waited 30 years between selling the first one and the second one? Oh, and in both cases he sold them for less than what a blank tam and original skull were worth. Very clever faker indeed!

BTW, who says there are no original photos showing this eagle? In most of the photos of berets being worn, the whole detail of the eagle can't be seen anyways. Who says some of them don't already show this type eagle...

Unless you have some "inside" information, this eagle can not be dismissed as some fantasy fake just because it doesn't match what we think they should look like.

Tom

"And even more interesting is the fact that another beret with the identical eagle, sewn onto the tam in the exact same way, turned up at a Lansing show in the late 70's/early 80's. "

Hi Tom,
Where is that beret that you refer to today?
Peter

[B. N. Singer]

...
I am not crazy about the eagle's appearance, but would have that beret in my collection.

Bob Hritz

TGN's logic seems compelling but then as I have said (despite lack of period pictures), I have always been confident of the example discovered 30 years ago.

And yes Mr. Hritz, so would I.

B. N. Singer

[Richard P]

Tom, Bob, Bryon,

I hope I was not misunderstood just because I called it a "cartoon eagle". I actually think it looks a lot like what they used for breast eagles, etc. on TV shows like combat....but I still like it. So it looks like a toucan, that doesn't make it fake by any means. I am willing to take B. N. Singers word that he has seen another identical eagle on one from a vet source. I also would be happy with it sitting on one of my shelves.

The beautiful close up photo by Kris at Oakleaf shows a lot of age toning on that eagle that can't be faked, especially to match the skulls wear and age toning.

I also agree with Bob, we may have seen it plenty of times in period photos but it is too far away to be distinguished.

I'm with you guys on this one! I may have observations about other parts of the beret, but not the tam, insignia, or sewing.

Richard

[Richard P]

Tom,

In case I didn't mention it, I agree with your logical arguments about the eagle, skull, matching threads, etc. As Bryon said your logic is compelling.

Richard

[PMan]

Beret

Tom, Bob, Bryon,

I hope I was not misunderstood just because I called it a "cartoon eagle". I actually think it looks a lot like what they used for breast eagles, etc. on TV shows like combat....but I still like it. So it looks like a toucan, that doesn't make it fake by any means. I am willing to take B. N. Singers word that he has seen another identical eagle on one from a vet source. I also would be happy with it sitting on one of my shelves.

The beautiful close up photo by Kris at Oakleaf shows a lot of age toning on that eagle that can't be faked, especially to match the skulls wear and age toning.

I also agree with Bob, we may have seen it plenty of times in period photos but it is too far away to be distinguished.

I'm with you guys on this one! I may have observations about other parts of the beret, but not the tam, insignia, or sewing.

Richard

Richard,
What are your observations, something about the body?? What do you mean?
Peter