Officers M43 Cap

[TomH]

Did anyone else see this officers M43 on Craig Gottlieb's site?

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/data/in...C+Italian+Wool

It was only on for a day or so before being snapped up at $9K!

I'm not casting doubt on this but i would be interested in comments from the headgear collectors - particularly where the "qualitats" stamp on the leather sweatband is concerned - was this standard?

cheers

Tom

[Ian Hulley]

Shame they didn't put the stamp on reversed so you could read it on the wearer's forehead when he took it off. Insignia's spot on but the placing of the stamp makes you wonder.

Ian.

[phild]

I've seen a lot of officer's M-43 and OS caps with similar generic markings impressed into the front partial headband. I have thought of the impression in the wearer's forehead that you mentioned as well and also with the peak caps that have the air holes in the headband!

I do not care much for this cap. It's hard to tell much from the photos but the wear on the insignia and how they "sink in" to the cap fabric looks very contrived too me. The cap seems to show some wear to the exterior but no discoloration to the light leather headband? The piping looks snow white. Im not keen on the lining material either..although it's possible I guess.

The cap is made with all the bells and whistles that collectors like to see as is every good fake made over the last few years. The much proclaimed and sought after re-enforcing material under the turn-up's hem is present...as it always will be on recent fakes, but not always used on originals...despite much incredulous belief by collectors!

If these type SS officer M-43 caps ( even if real) are now selling for 9k, I need to ask 25k each for my W-SS officer peak caps as they are many times the hat that these are.

[TonyS]

I've seen a lot of officer's M-43 and OS caps with similar generic markings impressed into the front partial headband. I have thought of the impression in the wearer's forehead that you mentioned as well and also with the peak caps that have the air holes in the headband!

I do not care much for this cap. It's hard to tell much from the photos but the wear on the insignia and how they "sink in" to the cap fabric looks very contrived too me. The cap seems to show some wear to the exterior but no discoloration to the light leather headband? The piping looks snow white. Im not keen on the lining material either..although it's possible I guess.

The cap is made with all the bells and whistles that collectors like to see as is every good fake made over the last few years. The much proclaimed and sought after re-enforcing material under the turn-up's hem is present...as it always will be on recent fakes, but not always used on originals...despite much incredulous belief by collectors!

If these type SS officer M-43 caps ( even if real) are now selling for 9k, I need to ask 25k each for my W-SS officer peak caps as they are many times the hat that these are.

I don't see a problem with the sweatband marking. As Phild says a lot of these sweatbands have these generic marks although I think the more common one is "Deutsches Leder"

I had some similar concerns about the lining, which looks unusual. For a $9000 cap hardly any photos are shown of it. The weave on the lining appears a lot coarser than the outside body of the cap. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

I also have to question the description that says "officer quality all the way" Those buttons are hardly officer quality!

Anyway, all that might be nitpicking.

Phild - that $25k figure might not be that far away. However, I think a lot more SS officers visors have appeared on the market (at least in the past few years) than SS officers M43's.

Personally I like the silver piped versions more than the white ones - rarer or not.

[phild]

The lining material appears to be like what I often see used on officer's greatcoat linings of coats from the mid 30s- maybe 1940 or so. I could be wrong as I only have the photos to go by. If this is correct there is nothing to say to leftover stocks my have been used in some caps or anything else.

The dirty secret is this: If all period materials are used (everything! and everyhing needed from the period is available today ...without question) and proper cut and construction is followed to the letter from reverse engineering an original, there is NO WAY to 100% tell an original from a fake.

We can suspect or entertain doubts all day about many given items but it may not be possible to prove.

Also, I would not consider that cap as a fine made officer's example but rather more like the semi-mass produced types of officer M-43s that were sold thru the SS clothing system.....I think that it is trying to be 2 button version of the real Stani film W-SS officer's caps brought in to the US in large numbers about 18 years ago (and retailed at around $250-$350 sans insigni) but this looks very contrived.

[BenVK]

The cap is made with all the bells and whistles that collectors like to see as is every good fake made over the last few years.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well. The comment "all the bells and whistles that collectors like to see" is a very interesting one. If anyone doubts the fact that there are very talented people out there right now, making high end caps to order out of original materials, they are fooling themselves.
Technicaly, this cap ticks all the boxes but I still wouldn't touch it.
Contrived describes my impression of it very well. That and the fact that it looks like it was made last week which it probably was!

[besslein]

this cap is not for me,looks realy srenge in form,piping is funny,imo a bad one

[sgstandard]

M-43

Handling, alone, would account for more soiling on the sweatband than is present here. Then, how many people would have tried this cap on in the last 60+ years? All of them must have washed their foreheads before trying it on, cause it's clean as a whistle !! If you believe this cap was manufactured, placed in a hat box, and virtually NEVER handled for over 60 years, then this is the cap for you. The totenkopf insignia does NOT look like it's been on there since the 40's as well. I paid less than $2500 just this year for one of those "undesirable" unissued Dachau SS Panzer M-43's with the exposed cardboard bill underside, and would not even CONSIDER trading it for this cap. NO WAY !!!

[Bob Hritz]

I do like the cap. It looks just like caps that George Peterson had, many years ago. I remember the shiney green satin twill lining. The buttons are correct for this type of iron gaberdine M-43 cap. When the insignia was applied is anyone's guess and a number of these hats were brought out of Russia by George. Some had insignia, some did not.


Of course, the only one that has to be satisfied is the buyer.

Bob Hritz

[TomH]

Thanks

Thanks for all the input - what got my attention was the price and the fact that it was sold so quickly!

cheers

Tom

[phild]

My feelings on this cap as I first responded are worth about 2 cents. I may feel very different about it if I saw it in person and I see nothing about it to say that it is fake. I am used to seeing the partial headbands sewn in a type of zig-zag pattern but this straight line may also be fine, I for sure have not examined hundreds of originals!

It almost looks to me (in the first photo that you can open below the main one) that the skull is applied over another skull? If so that would be a real bonus! It more likely is just a visual effect from the photo of the sewing going thru the end of the cross bones...making it appear that the end of another set of cross bones are sticking out beneath!

In my opinion the sewing is very "clean" on this cap compared to the one button Stani caps that were found in CZ. There is very little reverse 2nd pass stitiiching and it shows a very close thread spacing. It isc ertain that not every every maker and batch much less every cap was done exactly the same.

[PBR]

Shame they didn't put the stamp on reversed so you could read it on the wearer's forehead when he took it off.
Ian.

Oh Jesus Christ, that was funny.

Best Regards

[TonyS]

I'll log the description and photos so everyone can see what is being discussed when it disappears from CG's website:

<TABLE id=table4 style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 15px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=HEADGRND noWrap><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>SS Officer M43 Field Cap, Italian Wool #2866 </TD><TD></TD><TD>#2866 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD id=HEADGRNDRIGHT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=table11 style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 15px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top><TABLE id=table12 style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>A superb example of the SS officer's field cap. This beauty is piped with the correct white wool around the crown and is complete with its original metal flat wire skull and eagle! </TD><TD vAlign=top align=middle rowSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=table21 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 15px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top> SOLD
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=BDR3><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>An outstanding SS officer's cap. The Mütze is made of a field grey twill that is either Italian or Italian like wool of excellent quality. The cap is piped in white wool, which is the same weave as the piping of an SS black or grey officer's visor cap. Only the SS (and the HG field divisions) used white piping, and it's less common to find than the aluminum woven piping. The interior is lined with a fine polished cotton and has a leather sweatguard in the forehead area. The flap has the correct pull down straps and reinforcement sewn into the upper seam edges where it should be. The insignia is tailor sewn and is an excellent quality silver/aluminum flatwire. Buttons are ersatz material or bakelite and are original to the cap. The piece shows light wear and use, but no damage or excessive wear--it's one of the best I've seen in years! A perfect accompaniment to an SS officer's field tunic, or service tunic. Officer's quality all the way! Choice and rare! </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[sgstandard]

M-43

The last 2 pictures really bother me. Unless it's just the photography, the piping is just way too bright. Even on a stone mint cap, the white piping would turn somewhat yellow with age. In sixty years of probably being in various collections, you'd think that handling, alone, would account for more sweatband discoloration, or discoloration on the bill from being picked up. The piping bothers me the most, and besides, it doesn't match the condition of the skull. $9,000?

[90th Light]

I note carefully what PhilD and TonyS are saying here and can not disagree with their observations or opinions. This cap is a tough call for anyone although a hands on may reveal more.

One observation which PhilD has made about there possibly being another ranks quality skull under the officers quality skull is worthy of more investigation. In my experience, I have seen this on DAK officers caps or tunics were they have taken a ranks issue and applied the officer insignia over the top. If this was the case on this SS cap then that could be a positive sign. This is an efficient German approach to an up-grade. The question here is that this cap does not appear to be an up-grade but again I would need a hands-on to confirm this. I have never seen a fake cap or tunic with officer insignia over the issued ranks version. This is a feature I have only ever seen on untouched originals which helps to create the padded effect to the officer insignia.

I agree that the cap appears to be of totally new condition, un-issued, mint and pristine which after 60+ years is definitely very questionable but I would not be fooled by the fact that it is or by the fact that the piping is still as white as the day it was made. How something looks after 60 odd years is a function of how it has been used and where it was stored. If this cap was stored in acid free tissue in humid even temperature conditions and not exposed to any ultra-violet light, rodents or insects plus never used then it could look like that even after 150 years or even more. Ask any museum curator. The $9000 question is, was it ???

The chances of SS items being stored like that after the war is much more less likely than various branches of the Wehrmacht esp after they were declared an illegal organisation without the expected rights of a POW. I know Germans can be thrifty and carefully store items in excellent condition but I have not come across much SS stuff stored in that fashion.

In fact when I have had the very rare opportunity to ask an SS veteran what happened to his uniform or cap seeing as he survived, in the majority of cases I have been told that it was lost on purpose by the veteran himself, burnt often by someone else in his family to avoid guilt by association, taken by various allied forces either forceably/ unforceably or worn out as work clothing.

The only cases where I have seen SS items in this condition has been various cloth/ metal insignia, EM M43 caps and EM black visors which were from the stock of a shop carefully hidden in 1945 and then forgotten until the wall came down in 89. (the black visors had no insignia applied) or allied veteran liberated items eg Dachau. I have however seen some NSDAP and other party items found in mint condition which you would have thought could have been just as risky as storing SS items.

To sum up; the probability of finding an original in this type of condition today is very low where as the probability of a reproduction made to this standard has never been higher, Would need a "hand-on" to say more but it does have a chance. If it was me, I would be keeping in the back of my mind that a fool can rush where a wise man takes his time to tread,

Chris