Need help on SS M43 tunic.

[Ben]

Hello all,

I have been offered this tunic as trade material.
It's a nice salty M43 tunic. However I'm kind of scarred to take it in for trade without having some opinions from the experts.
The eagle is machine zig-zag stiched, the chevron is sown on by hand.
The SS tab is machine stitched with the top thread being black and the "under" thread being gray/tan. The rank tab is also machine stitched but both threads are black. The shoulder boards are Panzer pink. They have been sown on to the tunic next to the board loops. The left chest pocket has three award loops.
The lining is HBT style material, stamp is there but very faded.
Can anyone help me out as far as the originality of the insignia (and their attachment to this tunic) as well as maybe to a value of the tunic?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Ben

[Ben]

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[Ben]

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[herrgeezer]

Hi Ben. I'm no expert and this is just my gut feeling, but IMO, this tunic looks as if it's been put together recently. Wear of the wool on the tunic doesn't match the insignia. The sleeve eagle looks OK. The runes are interesting and I have seen EM/NCO runes similar to this in aluminum thread, but I can't say definitively that they are good. I don't like the rank tab either. Just my opinion.

[EKman]

No Thanks

I am suspicious of this one. For one thing, the first impression is that the insignia do not look nearly as weathered as the rest of the tunic. I do not like the rank tab. However, the jacket looks to be the real deal. My opinion would be that this is a period jacket with post-war applied insignia with the SS tab, sleeve eagle being likely orriginals and the rank tab a post-war production. If this is the case, the value of the tunic is reduced greatly, but depending on what sort of deal you are getting, you have to decide if it is sorth it to you. One thing you might look for is to see if there is any evidence at all of the shadow of previous insignia. This would be a dead givaway that this is a post war Frankenstein tunic.

[Ben]

Thanks guys,

basically you have confirmed what I thought as well.
Although the tunic is original I believe that the insignia might have been added later as well, but what what made me wonder was the fact that two different types of thread were used on the collar patches. There is evidence under the collar that the rank tab was replaced at some stage. The rank tab by the way looks very similar to a real (blank) SA tab that I have. The rank and SS tab on the tunic are also different in size. However, there is no "shadow" or "stitch hole" evidence that the insignia were replaced (except for the rank tab that is)..

Cheers!

Ben

[Willi Z.]

Though I am no SS cloth expert, I have seen a few superb repro SS M43 tunics coming out of Eastern Europe. I did look at them very closely for a lengthy period in the company of Mike Beaver and Bill Shea. EVERY small feature you like to see on a tunic was present: various colors of thread used in the construction, various peices of different fabric used in it's construction, the insignia looked like it was properly "age drawn" into the fabric, etc. The mistakes were in the markings, the shape of the pockets and the shape of collar. For me, the markings were enough to make me walk away. The rest had me fooled. My advice is to walk away from these when you see markings that are suspicious. I saw 4 of these a few months ago. A few more at the Max, which sold. I wonder how many of these things are in collections. Too many seem to have SS tunics now, something that always has been extremely rare and pricey. Too many dealers' websites have an entire page of SS tunics now.

Willi

[Gary Wood]

I agree with willi, ss period badged tunic are a RARE thing, yes there are those taken home as liberated war booty, but I would imagine most of those left in the fatherland had there insignia stripped or partially stripped to try to hide what they were, also clothing was in short supply after the war and a lot on military clothing was worn out, and also a lot of clothing was altered in style or dyed a different colour, so you must ask yourself WHERE HAVE ALL THESE ITEMS BEEN HIDING??????????.

there are some very very good fakes coming from the EAST and they are branching out all the time, watching forums like this for hints,
cheers,
Gary

[Ben]

I agree with willi, ss period badged tunic are a RARE thing, yes there are those taken home as liberated war booty, but I would imagine most of those left in the fatherland had there insignia stripped or partially stripped to try to hide what they were, also clothing was in short supply after the war and a lot on military clothing was worn out, and also a lot of clothing was altered in style or dyed a different colour, so you must ask yourself WHERE HAVE ALL THESE ITEMS BEEN HIDING??????????.

there are some very very good fakes coming from the EAST and they are branching out all the time, watching forums like this for hints,
cheers,
Gary

Thanks Gary and Willi!

As said before, I haven't got any doubt about the actual tunic. I have known it for almost twenty years now. The only thing that bothered me was the "weird" SS tab as well as the inconsistency of tunic wear versus the insignia.
Since I personally have never seen one of these SS tabs before I thought that someone on the forum might have, whether fake or original.
The Panzer shoulder boards were already somewhat of a non-issue to me as I can't imagine a soldier cutting of the loops and than sowing it to his tunic leaving the loops on the tunic intact. One of them also has pretty severe mothing underneath whilst there is no mothing on the tunic itself.
The trade value isn't all that horendous, you probably couldn't even get an un-badged SS M43 tunic for it. Although this one has wear to it, it has no holes or tears. Just a nice tunic to tuk away under a smock. I just don't want to start cutting tabs and eagles of a tunic thinking that they are fake whilst they actually might be not or vice versa.
BTW Gary, I don't live in the "fatherland".

Cheers and thank you all for your comments.

Ben

[EKman]

Very True

Even in the realm of my beloved Ek's it is becoming more and more difficult to seperate the wheat from the tares.

[Gary Wood]

"BTW Gary, I don't live in the "fatherland"."
Ben,
I never said you did what I said was;
" but I would imagine most of those left in the fatherland had there insignia stripped or partially stripped to try to hide what they were, also clothing was in short supply after the war and a lot on military clothing was worn out, and also a lot of clothing was altered in style or dyed a different colour"

in other words the tunic's

now back to your rank patch I do not like the collar litzen, all the other insignia I do not see a problem with, and the tunic I do not have a problem with, only you can decide if the item is for you, how I would do it is work out the value of the tunic stripped, and the value of the insignia then total it if the asking price is below that????????
cheers,
Gary

[Ben]

Many thanks Gary!!!

It is indeed way below what one would expect to pay when you would have to buy all of the items. As a matter of fact I have already made the swap.
I just didn't want to take everything of.
I will replace the rank tab and the shoulder boards however, they just don't sit well with me.
As you stated yourself their is just so many cr*p out there, and as far as fake is concerned 20 years (or longer) doesn't really mean anything which was why I was doubtfull myself about the SS tab.

Naturally the "fatherland" was in jest.

Once again, thank you!


Cheers,

Ben

[Gary Wood]

"I will replace the rank tab and the shoulder boards however"

Ben,
why replace the shoulder straps??????
cheers,
Gary

[Ben]

"I will replace the rank tab and the shoulder boards however"

Ben,
why replace the shoulder straps??????
cheers,
Gary

Gary,

there is heavy mothing on the reversed side of one of the shoulder straps (see attached Jpeg) whilst there is none whatsoever on the tunic's shoulder itself. No holes, no damage, nothing. The boards were obviously cut at some stage and then sown to this tunic. The thread used on the boards is different as to that on the SS tab and eagle as well. I have a nice un-cut set of Inf. piped boards which are intact but are in a more consistant condition with the jacket.

Cheers,
Ben

[Panzer]

Hi Guys,
the thread on the rank tab is obviously different because the tab has been removed during the addition of the litzen strip indicating Sturmann rank being applied. Tab off....strip on....resew back.

One absolutely MUST examine something like this in person......but personally I think it is quite a very reasonable tunic and it is being stomped on a bit too quickly. (that is not looking for an argument with anyone....I simply do not have the time or enregy for that....it is simply an observation.)

Cheers, Wade K.