380/40 SS Skull Issue

[BlackBelt]

A thought occured to me over the weekend when I was at a military show. I saw an SS 380/40 skull on a dealers table. This was the first time I had seen one in person, and boy was I astonished that is looked so good. The seller was convinced that these were authentic war time produced(of course), but made a good point. He said:

"War time records are incomplete. We know that these codes were used on legit known SS belt buckles. So why couldn't they have made SS skulls/ eagles too."

I thought, well.......that is a good point. So I did some research on this site, and found no member has produced evidence that these skulls were not war time produced. I did find that there was an agreement that these codes were used for SS buckles (so at least this guy was not way off mark). Some members stated that they "know" that these are "Austrian fakes from the 80's." However no one has been able to deliver any tangible evidence of that statement. If in fact these codes were used on authentic buckles, why couldn't that manufacturer have made the skulls/ eagles too? Why is one authentic, and not the other? Some how collectors agreed that the code 380 is a true manufacturer code. Was that based on wartime records? If records proved that there was a manufacturer assigned to that code who made METAL belt buckles, why couldn't they have made other METAL insignia? I know hucksters use any loop, or link to peddle thier stuff, but IMO that should not be used as an argument to dismiss this skull, especially if the buckles are agreed as authentic. One member on another thead indicated that the 380 buckle is very rare. Is this true? Perhaps the skulls follow suit.

Is there any real concrete proof that these 380/40 skulls were not war time produced?

Even Bill Shea (a reputable dealer in SS) has sold caps with this skull on them as original. Ulrich of England can be added to that list. These guys are at the top of the game in the vendors circle, esp Bill. So are they wrong too? To me these skulls are executed very, very well for being from the 1980's. I have found that in the 1980's as with the 1970's fakes were not done to this degree.

I have no dog in this fight, so to speak, I did not buy the skull, I simply think that this is a reasonable issue, that collectors should really look into. Let's see what can be furnished to prove one way or the other.

What do you all think?

[PMan]

380

Your point is well taken. WE..have all followed each other in the opinion that the 380 is NG and that is where it ends until proven oterwise. Perhaps a good place to start would be to compare the 380 marking on the skull verses other 380 markings on belt buckles, etc. I agree, that it is an impressive looking TK, but I cannot recall seeing it's distinctive thick, deep eyed look on any period photo.
Peter

[john mack]

Skull

Does Someone Have A Pic To Show An Example Of The Skull?

[BlackBelt]

Your point is well taken. WE..have all followed each other in the opinion that the 380 is NG and that is where it ends until proven oterwise. Perhaps a good place to start would be to compare the 380 marking on the skull verses other 380 markings on belt buckles, etc. I agree, that it is an impressive looking TK, but I cannot recall seeing it's distinctive thick, deep eyed look on any period photo.
Peter

Appreciate the input. But how, and why then was it agreed? What was the factual basis for the conclusion? I guess that is what I am driving at. Too many good things are passed because of no backed logic. Am I off here?

I agree that a proper comparison should be made, but even markings can change a bit from one batch to another. This is evidenced in the common M1/52 etc. Here is another tid bit. A collector friend of mine showed me a cap his father bought in the late 1960's. We looked behind the skull, and it is marked 380/40. How do we know it was purchased in the 60's.....well....his dad is alive and said so, but further there are photos of my friend's 3rd birthday dated 1974 that shows what looks like the same hat in the background. So that at least, proves, to me that these skulls were at least made prior to the well accounted 1980's. To be specific the skull is marked:

SS 380/40

Looking back I should have purhcased the skull this past weekend, but the price was too high for a 50/50 shot. I am not convinced either way, but lets see where this goes.

[SScollector]

I bought the set cheap, not long ago. I have seen many for sale as fakes, amongst about a hundred or so that were for sale as original over the years. Other collectors know, and could offer more info about where they came from, (Austria in the 80's, if I remember correctly), if they would.

Best, Chris

[BlackBelt]

Does Someone Have A Pic To Show An Example Of The Skull?

A quick search using "380 skull" brings up many threads that contain great shots.

[BlackBelt]

I bought the set cheap, not long ago. I have seen many for sale as fakes, amongst about a hundred or so that were for sale as original over the years. Other collectors know, and could offer more info about where they came from, (Austria in the 80's, if I remember correctly), if they would.

Best, Chris

Thanks Chris I was waiting for your input! If I am reading you clearly, there is nothing you have that proves this either way?

[PMan]

Photos

Appreciate the input. But how, and why then was it agreed? What was the factual basis for the conclusion? I guess that is what I am driving at. Too many good things are passed because of no backed logic. Am I off here?

I agree that a proper comparison should be made, but even markings can change a bit from one batch to another. This is evidenced in the common M1/52 etc. Here is another tid bit. A collector friend of mine showed me a cap his father bought in the late 1960's. We looked behind the skull, and it is marked 380/40. How do we know it was purchased in the 60's.....well....his dad is alive and said so, but further there are photos of my friend's 3rd birthday dated 1974 that shows what looks like the same hat in the background. So that at least, proves, to me that these skulls were at least made prior to the well accounted 1980's. To be specific the skull is marked:

SS 380/40

Looking back I should have purhcased the skull this past weekend, but the price was too high for a 50/50 shot. I am not convinced either way, but lets see where this goes.

I think you just made an interesting point in your post. If there are photos in existance from the 1970's showing this skull there should be at least 1, of all the period studio shots, showing the easy to recognize, deep eyed gaze of the 380. Where is it?
Pete

[BlackBelt]

I think you just made an interesting point in your post. If there are photos in existance from the 1970's showing this skull there should be at least 1, of all the period studio shots, showing the easy to recognize, deep eyed gaze of the 380. Where is it?
Pete

I am not sure, I have never seen one. I agree that a photo from the 1970's surely does not prove they are wartime, but it does suggest that the acknowledgement that they were made in the 1980's is flawed. Perhaps they flourished in the 80's? They were around atleast before then.

I am interested to see. Sorry I did not add this in my above post but, the dealer had, what looked authentic to me, a list of manufacturer codes dated 1940, that had Deschler listed as a buckle manufacturer only, and the 380 as a buckle maker. I gave him my address, and he said he would mail me a copy, so we'll see on that one. I don't know if it was real or fake, but I am convinced he thought it was authentic. I actually saw the list in one of his books that he showed to another customer on buckles. He was not aware that the 380 code was the same as on the skull. He looked genuinely shocked, and removed the skull from the table.

[bwanek1]

Thanks Chris I was waiting for your input! If I am reading you clearly, there is nothing you have that proves this either way?

That's a bit like saying, "So you can't prove unicorns don't exist? Then I gesss we don't know for certain that they don't." If you follow that logic, you will end up with a collection full of fakes.

It is important to recognize that the burden of proof belongs to someone claiming something to be real, not the other way around. Otherwise, we would accept every well made new fake as a previously unknown original.

In the case of this particular type and the other 300-series skulls and eagles, older collectors are familiar with the appearance of these Austrian fakes around the 1980's as Chris pointed out. Unfortunately, there was no internet back then to "document" every fake that came out and, as a result, people two decades later want to accept them as original.

As for dealers selling original caps with these fake insignia, I simply point out that even honest sellers make mistakes and most are not experts in SS metal insignia, who are capable of telling the difference. However, I challenge you or anyone to show a direct vet-acquired cap with such insignia.

[BlackBelt]

That's a bit like saying, "So you can't prove unicorns don't exist? Then I gesss we don't know for certain that they don't." If you follow that logic, you will end up with a collection full of fakes.

It is important to recognize that the burden of proof belongs to someone claiming something to be real, not the other way around. Otherwise, we would accept every well made new fake as a previously unknown original.

In the case of this particular type and the other 300-series skulls and eagles, older collectors are familiar with the appearance of these Austrian fakes around the 1980's as Chris pointed out. Unfortunately, there was no internet back then to "document" every fake that came out and, as a result, people two decades later want to accept them as original.

As for dealers selling original caps with these fake insignia, I simply point out that even honest sellers make mistakes and most are not experts in SS metal insignia, who are capable of telling the difference. However, I challenge you or anyone to show a direct vet-acquired cap with such insignia.

I certainly respect your position. I am using a sort of reverse logic to see how far can this issue really go. I am not convinced either way, as I dont feel there is enough evidence to support either position.

As for photographic documentation on photos, well....how many skulls are out there that at one point were thought phony, that end up being true. Case in point the "Latvian" made skulls, and Estonian skulls. Also the Belgin made version, and Ukranian versions. I think there are many skulls undocumented. Not saying that this is one of them, but the possibility does exist. I am not sure I would compare the logic with Unicorns, becasue we do know that the code 308 was assigned to a proven manufacturer. Also "older" collectors have been proven wrong many times. Case in point the Panzer Wrap from the Arizona POW camp. Thier info is respected, but as you said the lines of communication then were limited, and the hobby in my opinion was still in its infancy regarding factual basis. All in all I respect your input, and agree with many of your points. What if there was a "horde" discovered as with the "Berlin" skulls a few years back? Maybe thats whey they hit the market in mass. Just a thought.

Any other info that can be documented?

[bwanek1]

I am not convinced either way, as I dont feel there is enough evidence to support either position.

Believe what you want and throw your money away if you like; it's your collection. Just don't be disappointed if the day should come that you decide to sell one of those old fakes, which you accepted as real, and no one wants to buy them.

[BlackBelt]

Believe what you want and throw your money away if you like; it's your collection. Just don't be disappointed if the day should come that you decide to sell one of those old fakes, which you accepted as real, and no one wants to buy them.

I am not saying that I believe they are authentic, nor that I would want something that may prove to be fake. The price he wanted was too high to take the gamble. Let's face it. This whole hobby is big gamble, and sometimes you have to take a risk, if its worth it to you. You can only protect yourself so far. That is why I posted this question to the forum. Its interesting, and really needs a dsicussion. Opinion aside, there is really is nothing that disproves them as authentic. So far nothing more than speculation has rendered these as fakes. Could be, I do not know, but the information that is tangible, thus far point to them as authentic. The code on the back is a legit code for a 3rd Reich manufacturer of some sort of metal insignia, belt or other. So the reality is, based on what factually is in hand that they would be more authentic, than not. As an impartial viewer that's what I would be seeing. Would you disagree?

As for Vet aquired, I agree that would be great. The cap I saw, was not a direct vet accuisition. He said he bought it a a show in West Virginia. The cap was certainly legit, but the skull...................this is the question. If you go with the argument of a direct vet aquisition, you would then have to prove that the cap was truely vet accuired pre-wars end, and had not been messed with by the vet themselves, which has been the case many times over.

A bit over the top I know, but still accurate.

We can play "what about, or what if" all day. There has to be something factual/ tangible out there that disproves these as being authentic. In hand the provable facts are leaning to their favor. Wouldn't you agree looking at it objectively?

"Believe what you want and throw your money away if you like; it's your collection. Just don't be disappointed if the day should come that you decide to sell one of those old fakes, which you accepted as real, and no one wants to buy them."

Isn't that always the case in this hobby.

[phild]

Interesting post and a timeless argument. I have no position on these at this time.

This argument applies to many things in 3rd Reich and other era collecting.

The argument against these type of things being orignal always come down to these points:

1. they are a little different than any other variation of accepted originals.
2. they appeared at one time in bulk as "un-issued items" and are un-proven as any example from vet sources.
3. They are offered NOW as fakes and sell cheaply so they must be fakes and the experts say that they fake.

Im sure that the above areas sound familiar to all of us and apply to many things!

The counter arguments to the above points are as follows:

1. German items then to have been made in batches or runs or contracts...which ever you prefer to call them. This means that there are always differences (slight) and these are called VARIATIONS! Some are accepted and some are not and some fall both in and out of collector favor with time! ...FACT!

2. German supply methods tended to ship these batches to specifc supply points based on needs, this caused some batches to be isolated in supply centers that for various got little issue or were cut off and stocks destroyed, hidden by locals or forgotten ...fill in the blank..PLENTY of issued stock of a lot of things have surfaced since the war and still ARE.....many of these variations are unknown to vet captured items

3. This is called "self fulfilling prophecy"! Experrts say something is bad, the herd avoids said items for that reason. These items are now branded as fakes and the value is minimal and the supply plentiful! The cycle continues.

Lastly...these type of items rarely ever get an objective re-look because reputations are on the line, as too many peopley have declared them fakes and now cannot reverse their previous position as they have gone on record and avised hundereds of people to dump these these...etc...

[BlackBelt]

Interesting post and a timeless argument. I have no position on these at this time.

This argument applies to many things in 3rd Reich and other era collecting.

The argument against these type of things being orignal always come down to these points:

1. they are a little different than any other variation of accepted originals.
2. they appeared at one time in bulk as "un-issued items" and are un-proven as any example from vet sources.
3. They are offered NOW as fakes and sell cheaply so they must be fakes and the experts say that they fake.

Im sure that the above areas sound familiar to all of us and apply to many things!

The counter arguments to the above points are as follows:

1. German items then to have been made in batches or runs or contracts...which ever you prefer to call them. This means that there are always differences (slight) and these are called VARIATIONS! Some are accepted and some are not and some fall both in and out of collector favor with time! ...FACT!

2. German supply methods tended to ship these batches to specifc supply points based on needs, this caused some batches to be isolated in supply centers that for various got little issue or were cut off and stocks destroyed, hidden by locals or forgotten ...fill in the blank..PLENTY of issued stock of a lot of things have surfaced since the war and still ARE.....many of these variations are unknown to vet captured items

3. This is called "self fulfilling prophecy"! Experrts say something is bad, the herd avoids said items for that reason. These items are now branded as fakes and the value is minimal and the supply plentiful! The cycle continues.

Lastly...these type of items rarely ever get an objective re-look because reputations are on the line, as too many peopley have declared them fakes and now cannot reverse their previous position as they have gone on record and avised hundereds of people to dump these these...etc...

Very well put on all counts, and I agree 100% with your reasoning.
I too have no concrete opinion, I am merly speculating, because factualy speaking, there is nothing to disprove these as authentic, specificly realting to your comments.