1st pattern Jawless cap skull thread

[Funia]

Thank you Robert.
Your first skull in your collection is also nice.
Peter

[patrickhayes234]

Hi everyone,

I just have a quick question which I'm sure has been asked many times. When it comes to SS skulls and Eagles for visor caps whether it be 1st pattern or 2nd pattern, do the prongs/pins have to come to a point? I ask this because I have seen prongs/pins with straight/flat endings which raises the main question; of how they would pierce through the desired material. Are these types Considered as genuine or would you stay away?

As usual thank you for all the replies👍

[Funia]

Circa 1925 -35 first pattern
Circa 1935-45 second pattern.
Those dates are easy to learn.
More accuracy dates more difficult to learn
Peter

[Spitfire]

Here's a couple of mine

The first is early Allgemeine SS, came with matching period eagle from Bill Shea. Tombak with silver plating, and double prongs. Posted on the WAF many years back, similar to one in Robins earlier posts. Double prongs are seen on SS insignia.



Al

[Spitfire]

The second I picked up from DN many moons ago, described as early SS Skull - my guess is a Danzig style (?). Photo not the best, taken out side in the sun and the glare seems to have filled in some of the crevices between the jaw bones. Prongs vertical and one missing. Skull is Tombak.

Right side of the head is a little pushed in - probably while street fighting with some communist party members.

[Spitfire]

Found a better pic for the second skull - DN descirbed it simply as Early SS Skull 1st pattern for the visor.

[Funia]

Spitfire ,nice skulls.
They could be used by SS and on some SS caps they are visible but this type of skulls were used much earlier.
First skull posted by you is a variant of 5th Kavallerie regiment.
But as I wrote this type of skulls sometimes are visible visible on early SS caps.
Second skull posted by you is a Danziger type variant but in early version.
In some early versions pins were mounted verticaly as is shoved on your skull.
On later versions more common is ,,horizontal'' fastened pins.
Here is early skull a typical Braunschweig skull witch visible vertical mounted pin.
They were not used by SS .
Only on one drawing this type of skull is visible on SS cap.But it is drawing not photo.

Peter

[Spitfire]

Hi Peter

Thanks for looking at my post and providing the helpful additional information and clarifications.

I have read that in 1923 when Strosstrupp Adolf Hitler desiced to use the totenkopf on their caps they originally used up the existing army surplus stores for these ( hence the Kavalary version seen and what ever others they could find here), and then contracting Deschler of Munich for the Prussian style jawless. Is this correct?

Nice totenkpof that you posted.

best regards, Al

[Funia]

Yes you are correct.
But I think not only Deschler suplied them.
Also Assman for sure offered Danziger pattern totenkopf.
In Assman catalogue from the 1930s this type of scull is still offered
Also in 1920s in Germany still exist many other small manufactures where were made skulls..
They also produced skulls in many variants and witch different quality.
Some SS members as you wrote used existing Kaiser Army skulls and skulls made for Freikorps (some units from Freikorps also used totenkopf badges)
Also money was important factor. SS members in early years should pay for their uniforms and badges.Some of them were are poor people.Some early SS units in small towns were often used civilian clothes and only one or two have uniforms.This way existing Kaiser or freikorps badges were also used to save money.
Because my Engisch is very poor it is for me hard to describe how this evaluate in future.
Here is example of primitive made totenkopf .
Peter

[Sergeant 08]

Spitfire ,nice skulls.
They could be used by SS and on some SS caps they are visible but this type of skulls were used much earlier.
First skull posted by you is a variant of 5th Kavallerie regiment.
But as I wrote this type of skulls sometimes are visible visible on early SS caps.
Second skull posted by you is a Danziger type variant but in early version.
In some early versions pins were mounted verticaly as is shoved on your skull.
On later versions more common is ,,horizontal'' fastened pins.
Here is early skull a typical Braunschweig skull witch visible vertical mounted pin.
They were not used by SS .
Only on one drawing this type of skull is visible on SS cap.But it is drawing not photo.

Peter

This is no early Brunswick skull pattern. A typical Wehrmacht skull, IR17 for example.

[Sergeant 08]

Yes you are correct.
But I think not only Deschler suplied them.
Also Assman for sure offered Danziger pattern totenkopf.
In Assman catalogue from the 1930s this type of scull is still offered
Also in 1920s in Germany still exist many other small manufactures where were made skulls..
They also produced skulls in many variants and witch different quality.
Some SS members as you wrote used existing Kaiser Army skulls and skulls made for Freikorps (some units from Freikorps also used totenkopf badges)
Also money was important factor. SS members in early years should pay for their uniforms and badges.Some of them were are poor people.Some early SS units in small towns were often used civilian clothes and only one or two have uniforms.This way existing Kaiser or freikorps badges were also used to save money.
Because my Engisch is very poor it is for me hard to describe how this evaluate in future.
Here is example of primitive made totenkopf .
Peter

Primitive made skull? No, a skull in poor condition from the ground. It says nothing about the quaylity, when it was made.

[Funia]

Primitive made skull? No, a skull in poor condition from the ground. It says nothing about the quaylity, when it was made.

O.K You are right. I used not correct world.
Anyway how it is made I still like this skull.
Here is last one almost same type.
Of course witch all honours in collection
Peter

[Brig]

Posted this elsewhere, but figured I'd add my latest to the thread...