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**Beau Brummel.** · 07-07-2008, 02:39 PM

Hi Basil,

You are right, I was far too dogmatic and should have inserted the word apparently.

In no way was I denigrating the reputation of my local regiment (In fact I rather like to think that a few of them may well have taken the time to doctor some of their ammunition). That story has not been told to me by any apologists but rather has attained somewhat folklore status up here and I have heard It repeated many times. Doesn't make It fact though I know.

I was just trying to illustrate (clumsily I now realize) that "to the victor the spoils" and with It the right to interpret and record the events. As a self professed historian you understand that I know.

Sorry if I piqued your professional sensibilities.

Yours, Guy.

**Seigfried** · 07-09-2008, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Basil View Post

What utter cobblers. Where would the Norfolks have been getting expanding ammunition from then? Military ammunition comes through the supply chain

It is perfectly feasible that they themselves may have converted from ball to expanding by cutting a cross or drilling a hole into the point of the round. We (in the British Army) get an annual video about the Law of Armed Conflict which highlights this very practice.

**Doug Kenwright** · 07-10-2008, 09:57 AM

Woe be unto you if the enemy caught you in the field with 'dum dum' ammunition in your pouches..

Quickest way to a bad case of lead poisoning that i know...

In regards to the repro items, it has been common practice for years for collectors to pawn off their junk and repro's at auction..and it's not the just the newbies or un-informed either, but rather people who should know better.

Swastikas sell indeed..

**Basil** · 07-11-2008, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by Seigfried View Post

It is perfectly feasible that they themselves may have converted from ball to expanding by cutting a cross or drilling a hole into the point of the round. We (in the British Army) get an annual video about the Law of Armed Conflict which highlights this very practice.

I will have been in the British Army for 25 years this September and I've watched the LOAC video countless times. Having said that, I have yet to come across a soldier in a combat situation with the time or inclination to bother modifying their ammunition, not least because the likelihood is that it will become less accurate and effective. Stories of Brit soldiers modifying rounds in Northern Ireland (which is why it originally got included in the LOAC video) were initially put about by the leftist journalist Duncan Campbell in articles in Time Out in the 1970s. They were based on rumours not facts, not least because we had to account for every round that we were issued in Northern Ireland and any alterations would have been immediately spotted.

The fact was that in May/June 1940, the Totenkopfdivision was largely manned by ex KL guards and SS reservists who had not had anything like the amount of military training that the SS-VT had undergone, and were shaken by their exposure to hard combat against a determined enemy. It was an unfortunate characteristic of the MkVIIZ .303 bullet in use by the British Army at the time that it tended to leave a large exit wound (the 'soup plate' sized wounds described by members of the Totenkopfdivision) but it wasn't unique in doing this and, as you probably know as a soldier, the wounds left by any high-energy rifle round are always pretty terrible.

**Seigfried** · 07-11-2008, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Basil View Post

I will have been in the British Army for 25 years this September

It is nice to meet a fellow Serviceman on the WAF! I will have been in 24 years this November.

I did not realise the reason for inclusion of the expanding rounds into the LOAC, I just assumed that it contravened the LOAC and therefore had to be mentioned. I have never heard of anyone attempting it either - you didn't need to with a 7.62 anyway! I wouldn't imagine that the controls on ammo were quite as strict in the withdrawal to Dunkirk as in Ulster though, I was there with an infantry battalion in '86 and they were very tight on missing rounds, NDs etc - I was therefore very surprised at the apparent laxity involving accountability when I was on Herrick earlier this year - odd rounds were occasionally found lying around. All the best.

**yellow** · 07-24-2008, 09:41 AM

I`m sorry to admit that I have used this auction house many times. They have no one who knows anything about militaria who works for them so how they can say they are genuine is beyond me.

I seriously hope the person who paid all that money out comes on here and finds this thread and asks for their money back. The sad thing is the people who work for the auction house 'think' they know it all so to see the smiles wiped from their smug faces and follow up report documenting this lot as fakes would honestly make my day.

In regards the whole media thing is a publicity stunt by the auction house and the fact that it made the BBC shows that in the UK we really dont have any news worth reporting.

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