Announcement

**Thorsten B.** · 05-26-2009, 05:03 AM

Concerning Pohl:

he was deeply interested and involved into the ideas of renewed cultic and religious rituals, especially concerning family life!

He presented his son a very detailed and symbolic silver ring made by Gahr bearing his family crest in a polished stone and combined with Lebensrunen on both upper sides of the ring.

Onby in a ceremonial act his son received with this ring a citation in which Pohl deeply refers to german medieval habits like "aus der Mund entlassen" - Mund (very old term!) is the period of time when a person is being guided and observed by a concretely named and responsible relative of the child/teenager before he has grown up and takes care about his life by himself.

In german language still today we have the term "Vormund" in law - it can be the case that both parents die (for example by accident) and so the government asks the relatives or elects a person to act in the name of the child to protect and take care about the rights and duties.

Pohl was far more than only the top-manager of the economic ambitions of the SS!!

**JoeW** · 05-26-2009, 08:13 AM

Michael, you present a wonderful reference work. That page showing the distinction between the heads of party and state eagles is very interesting.

Thorsten, thank you for the additional insight into Pohl's psyche.

**ErichS** · 05-26-2009, 05:09 PM

I find this part of the TR fascinating including the mystical runic symbols and history of the Honor ring. Thanks Michael for sharing this much unknown part of the hobby. Best, Erich

**Capt. R** · 05-27-2009, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Carson View Post

Based on the book A Practical Guide to The Runes (Their Uses in Divination and Magick) 1989 by Lisa Peschel:

The "S" is called the Sigel (Sig) Rune and is "one of the great runes of victory."

The "P" rune is called the Wunjo Rune, which means "joy or happiness coming into your life."

The author also mentions the intertwining of runes to "strengthen their great power".

Just off the cuff, the plaques meaning to me would be;

The Third Reich or German Empire (Symbolized by the Helmet and Dagger) will face much Joy (Wunjo Rune) through Victory (Siegel Rune) as the waves of a new age (Waves at the bottom of the plaque) spread throughout the world.

Carson
this has been a most informative and inciteful post!

This whole thread is the type of discussion I most wish for on this forum! Keep it up gents! Michael - the heraldry book is fantastic - thanks for sharing.

**Albrecht** · 05-28-2009, 02:49 PM

Greetings Michael,

Thank you for posting yet another compelling relic for us to enjoy. It's a beautiful plaque and makes a stunning presentation piece. The Wappen book is similarly intriguing.

On an aside, you mentioned in a post some time (months?) ago, that you own an astrological book by Von Sebottendorf. Could you please post the title of this book? Was it written before or after the war?

Thanks and Best Regards,

B.A.Vierling

**JoeW** · 05-28-2009, 03:00 PM

While I do not necessarily believe the plaque to be associated with the coats of arms of Himmler's senior generals, there is no reason to deny a Wewelsburg connection (via Paderborn provenance) as the piece could have been locally created for decorative purposes within the castle itself. Besides the Anerherbe research, was there any creative art areas established with the rebuilding of Wewelsburg?

**Arran** · 05-28-2009, 03:10 PM

Perhaps if you were an SS officer visiting Wewelsburg you might have one of these made up by a local craftsman (perhaps also making official pieces for Wewelsburg), after your enthusiasm for runes had been fired up at the castle. I love the quality, finish, and patina of this piece...

**Thorsten B.** · 05-28-2009, 05:20 PM

Karl Diebitsch was the responsible man for creating these Familienwappen for the Obergruppenführer - it started in 1938 and many Gruppen- und Obergruppenführer had to face the situation that - although digging deep in regional archives where they have been born - in most cases there has never ever been such a Wappen within their family history.

This action came to an end on the one hand because the persons envolved in general had other things on their plate and in specific Diebitsch went to war, he desperately wanted to!

One must have in mind that Diebitsch created furniture as well as many other interior pieces - in my opinion this plaque speaks his language and it looks different from other SS-wood work I know.

It is more clear in it´s design, more heroic, more soldatisch!

Not to forget: Diebitsch played a role in the Freikorps fights in Silesia (Annaberg) as well - and he was lateron responsible for the new Freikorps monument - a plate with an inscription - in 1956 in Schliersee. The old monument being erected in 1921 had been completely destroyed in May 1945.

The inscription is as followed:

"Freikorps Oberland

Dem Gedenken seiner 52 im Freiheitskampf in Oberschlesien anno 1921 gefallenen Kameraden.
Sie werden wieder auferstehen."

The plate was made out of stone and financed by the local stonemason Franz Wunderle.

I think this gives a little bit of the historical background where many key figures in the SS came from.

**JoeW** · 05-28-2009, 05:48 PM

It must have bored him stiff to have to send out those repetitive requests to the generals to send in their Wappen!

Thanks for the additional information Thorsten.

**Michael Fay** · 05-29-2009, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

Karl Diebitsch was the responsible man for creating these Familienwappen for the Obergruppenführer - it started in 1938 and many Gruppen- und Obergruppenführer had to face the situation that - although digging deep in regional archives where they have been born - in most cases there has never ever been such a Wappen within their family history.

This action came to an end on the one hand because the persons envolved in general had other things on their plate and in specific Diebitsch went to war, he desperately wanted to!

One must have in mind that Diebitsch created furniture as well as many other interior pieces - in my opinion this plaque speaks his language and it looks different from other SS-wood work I know.

It is more clear in it´s design, more heroic, more soldatisch!

Not to forget: Diebitsch played a role in the Freikorps fights in Silesia (Annaberg) as well - and he was lateron responsible for the new Freikorps monument - a plate with an inscription - in 1956 in Schliersee. The old monument being erected in 1921 had been completely destroyed in May 1945.

The inscription is as followed:

"Freikorps Oberland

Dem Gedenken seiner 52 im Freiheitskampf in Oberschlesien anno 1921 gefallenen Kameraden.
Sie werden wieder auferstehen."

The plate was made out of stone and financed by the local stonemason Franz Wunderle.

I think this gives a little bit of the historical background where many key figures in the SS came from.

Hallo Thorsten,
as always it is a pleasure to get to read your posts.
Now I must ask you if you think
if it is both possibly a Familienwappen and related to the Neu Freikorps ?
Or more possibly a Diebitsch type Freikorp memorial plaque?
This is all historically wonderful for me.
Gruss Gott,
MF

**JoeW** · 05-29-2009, 08:25 AM

Reading Thorsten's post #38 again required me to review my archive notes on this, as I have some memory overload. And Michael, it is evident that you need to expand your list of possible names from your earlier post, as it is evident that the request from the RFSS for Familienwappen was made to many more, if not all, of the SS Gruppenfuhrers, Ober or not, that were in the SS.

Moreover, I feel compelled to modify my original statements in this thread. I now see that Bindenrunen were considered to be incorporated into the Familienwappen. That would bring your plaque into play in that regard. What I regarded as too much simplicity in its execution versus the more elaborate work done with the Pohl arms, that would exclude it from consideration as Familienwappen, is not a valid measure for me to use. I can see such simply done designs as Familienwappen next to the more traditional Pohl arms.

If it was Freikorps related, it would seem to have to be a new design for some type of memorial, for anything related to a past Freikorps unit would have to have involved their particular crests. And trying to remember the listing of these Wappen in very old issues of Feldgrau magazine, I don't remember any runic symbols.

Michael, could you provide us with a view of the reverse of the plaque as well as its measurements? Thank you.

**Michael Fay** · 05-30-2009, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Reading Thorsten's post #38 again required me to review my archive notes on this, as I have some memory overload. And Michael, it is evident that you need to expand your list of possible names from your earlier post, as it is evident that the request from the RFSS for Familienwappen was made to many more, if not all, of the SS Gruppenfuhrers, Ober or not, that were in the SS.

Moreover, I feel compelled to modify my original statements in this thread. I now see that Bindenrunen were considered to be incorporated into the Familienwappen. That would bring your plaque into play in that regard. What I regarded as too much simplicity in its execution versus the more elaborate work done with the Pohl arms, that would exclude it from consideration as Familienwappen, is not a valid measure for me to use. I can see such simply done designs as Familienwappen next to the more traditional Pohl arms.

If it was Freikorps related, it would seem to have to be a new design for some type of memorial, for anything related to a past Freikorps unit would have to have involved their particular crests. And trying to remember the listing of these Wappen in very old issues of Feldgrau magazine, I don't remember any runic symbols.

Michael, could you provide us with a view of the reverse of the plaque as well as its measurements? Thank you.

Hello Joe,
I am intrigued by your info. By "listing of Wappen" you mean there was an actual list of heraldic coats of arms for SS to be found in an old Feldgrau magazine?
This is of interest to me. I dont suppose you remember the issue?

As an aside: The runic revival came hand in hand with reactionary paramilitary fighters of the Freikorp.

**JoeW** · 05-30-2009, 07:14 AM

Michael

"If it was Freikorps related, it would seem to have to be a new design for some type of memorial, for anything related to a past Freikorps unit would have to have involved their particular crests. And trying to remember the listing of these Wappen in very old issues of Feldgrau magazine, I don't remember any runic symbols."

The old Feldgrau magazines contained the Wappen of the Freikorps units. Sorry if I wasn't more clear in my statement above.

**JoeW** · 06-02-2009, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Reading Thorsten's post #38 again required me to review my archive notes on this, as I have some memory overload. And Michael, it is evident that you need to expand your list of possible names from your earlier post, as it is evident that the request from the RFSS for Familienwappen was made to many more, if not all, of the SS Gruppenfuhrers, Ober or not, that were in the SS.

Moreover, I feel compelled to modify my original statements in this thread. I now see that Bindenrunen were considered to be incorporated into the Familienwappen. That would bring your plaque into play in that regard. What I regarded as too much simplicity in its execution versus the more elaborate work done with the Pohl arms, that would exclude it from consideration as Familienwappen, is not a valid measure for me to use. I can see such simply done designs as Familienwappen next to the more traditional Pohl arms.

If it was Freikorps related, it would seem to have to be a new design for some type of memorial, for anything related to a past Freikorps unit would have to have involved their particular crests. And trying to remember the listing of these Wappen in very old issues of Feldgrau magazine, I don't remember any runic symbols.

Michael, could you provide us with a view of the reverse of the plaque as well as its measurements? Thank you.

After having reviewed the photos in "Himmler's Camelot" and my comments above, I would say that while the plaque under discussion in this thread does display similarities in heraldic design to the known Familienwappen found at Wewelsburg, the execution is not similar and would therefore be extra-Wewelsburg. IMO it could be a private execution or perhaps a link to Freikorps as was suggested.

Was there any other provenance besides the notation of acquisition in the Paderborn area with which further research might be attempted?

**Capt. R** · 06-02-2009, 02:44 PM

Isn't this plaque pictured in Robin Lumsden's book? If so, is it the same one? What did Lumsden say about it - hasn't he any guidance other than what he published above?????? I think he would be the best source for why it is in his book and what authority he used to place it there in the first place...

Announcement

Wewelsburg heraldic plaque

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread