Allach Alert!!!

[Vid]

Look out!

Better study this one. If there is a buyer of this piece off of Ebay, I would be willing to pay shipping to inspect this piece hands on.

[Vid]

Really rare ALLACH

cascet , box, can (never seen before !!)

7,5 x 6,5 x 4 cm

MINT CONDITION

secure shipping is no problem, please send an email if there are any questions !!

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Rechtliche Informationen des Verkäufers

Antiquitäten Wittmann GbR

Klosterstrasse 1

85221 Dachau



Telefon: +49 (0)8131 / 80261

Telefax: +49 (0)8131 / 371621

E-Mail: info@kunsthandel-dachau.de



Geschäftsführer: Cornelius Wittmann M. A.

[Robin Lumsden]

Never seen one like that before.

Do you have doubts, Kris?

I've been in the Wittmann shop in Dachau and he had some really nice items.

The last time I was there, he had a 'smashed' Allach candle holder in the window................probably as a lesson for would-be buyers to take care with the duster.

[Vid]

Never seen one like that before.

Do you have doubts, Kris?

I've been in the Wittmann shop in Dachau and he had some really nice items.

The last time I was there, he had a 'smashed' Allach candle holder in the window................probably as a lesson for would-be buyers to take care with the duster.

Hi Robin,

Yeah, I have been on the piece since listed, I do have concerns with it. I requested photo's to help me with a couple things I was looking at and that went unanswered. Then the seller pulled it. And as soon as I put up the alert post's, the seller removed the photo's.

So either the buyer requested their removal or the seller did not like my questions. I really want to see this piece as it does not agree with my eyes or what I would expect to see in such a piece. This one concerns me but without the photo's I asked for I cant be sure. It is a very scary piece.

I don't have issue with the seller as much as wanting to get my hands on the box. I was ready to buy it just to see it, and if its what I fear it is? I would be out some money.

Best,

Kris

[Robin Lumsden]

Thanks Kris.

It's certainly an odd one.

[Soldat de Fer]

Hi Robin,

Yeah, I have been on the piece since listed, I do have concerns with it. I requested photo's to help me with a couple things I was looking at and that went unanswered. Then the seller pulled it. And as soon as I put up the alert post's, the seller removed the photo's.

So either the buyer requested their removal or the seller did not like my questions. I really want to see this piece as it does not agree with my eyes or what I would expect to see in such a piece. This one concerns me but without the photo's I asked for I cant be sure. It is a very scary piece.

I don't have issue with the seller as much as wanting to get my hands on the box. I was ready to buy it just to see it.

Best,

Kris

Hello
while this kind of collectible are really not my aera I do know about hight quality porcelain and , I would say that I do understand your concern about it , and can clearly see the problems with this particular piece ( I can not comment on the markings) . Th finish of this piece is rather poor and does not match the quality of such other real items. The sides being "crooked" the lid being disformed , looks like the porcelain was made by some really cheap inexperienced porcelain maker .
Am I correct ?
Best Regards
P-Y

[Vid]

It is a crude piece, and there are other issues as well. But its the octagon that concerns me. It has not really been used on fakes at all. So this would be the first case if the piece turned out to be bad.

So, I really wanted to see it.

Best,

Kris

[Texasuberalles]

For the moment, forget the authenticity issue.

What does this purport to be? A button box, pin box, match box, Cigarette box or what?

While it may be obvious to some of you - but not to me - and I'm curious.

Thanks!

[Vid]

For the moment, forget the authenticity issue.

What does this purport to be? A button box, pin box, match box, Cigarette box or what?

While it may be obvious to some of you - but not to me - and I'm curious.

Thanks!

Seller referred to it as a cask. So I guess it could be for anything the owner wanted to use it for. Its 6x7 inches so not tiny.

For arguments sake?? If the item is real? it would most likely been part of a set, the other pieces would probably give clue to what this was for.

Since its un-numbered which is typical when there is a question, it makes it difficult to pull a company description. I have never personally seen the piece or one like it. Not for Allach anyway.

I know my sister and my mother had similar boxes for chains and rings, charms, etc. Other than that, I am at a loss.

[Robert H]

For my view this marking is a very good quality repro.

About quality, not everyhing in a "Manufaktur" came out from production as it should be. Of course these items did not went out on the market, but who knows what happen with all these items. I would assume they didn't last long and where getting back for melting. But who knows ...

[Vid]

About quality, not everyhing in a "Manufaktur" came out from production as it should be. Of course these items did not went out on the market, but who knows what happen with all these items. I would assume they didn't last long and where getting back for melting. But who knows ...

Robert,

This is true, and probably more so with porcelain, handmade, pre-fired, glazed, fired, . So each piece can vary from one to another. A factory reject or 2nd would explain some things I guess. But I have never seen a factory 2nd.

There was a process however, or in this case an attempted process and that would not change, the piece might collapse or come out awful but you still have indicators of the process of manufacture and of course the porcelain itself.

Without the piece or the photo's I was looking for, I am just baffled. but if this piece is fraudulent then we are going to see more octagons and pieces that fall outside the normal high quality associated with the firm.

Maybe it will show up and the buyer will allow photo's or an inspection. I don't know but the use of he octagon would be new on a fake, and that opens the door for more problems.

Take care Robert

Kris

[Thorsten B.]

Hello Kris,

thanks for the pics!

My short idea: Mr. Wittmann made a big advertisement action about two months ago - that means he placed "Wanted to buy-handletters" within an issue of a local newspaper in Dachau and it´s surroundings.
That means obviously he got some new pieces from people who normally do not need/tried to look for Allach pieces in their households.
If there is anywhere the possibility that still some yet unknown pieces show up it is in that area!
So from the first glance I think it IS a real piece but it did not pass the contest to get into the production line and that explains that a production number is missing. Otherwise it ought to have been an official award like some plaques or (probably in this case) another idea of the first rallye bowl or part of a desk set that had been kept in the production archive and got looted in 1945 or just went home with one of the artists or their friends/workers...

The look of it is typically Art Déco and the octagon-mark fits as well (and can´t be copied that easy for low money!) - just the mark in it is not perfect but that does not need to mean anything.

Is it the right size to put keep letters/pics in it??

Best,

Thorsten

[Vid]

Hello Kris,

thanks for the pics!

My short idea: Mr. Wittmann made a big advertisement action about two months ago - that means he placed "Wanted to buy-handletters" within an issue of a local newspaper in Dachau and it´s surroundings.
That means obviously he got some new pieces from people who normally do not need/tried to look for Allach pieces in their households.
If there is anywhere the possibility that still some yet unknown pieces show up it is in that area!
So from the first glance I think it IS a real piece but it did not pass the contest to get into the production line and that explains that a production number is missing. Otherwise it ought to have been an official award like some plaques or (probably in this case) another idea of the first rallye bowl or part of a desk set that had been kept in the production archive and got looted in 1945 or just went home with one of the artists or their friends/workers...

The look of it is typically Art Déco and the octagon-mark fits as well (and can´t be copied that easy for low money!) - just the mark in it is not perfect but that does not need to mean anything.

Is it the right size to put keep letters/pics in it??

Best,

Thorsten

Thorsten,

Here is the problem or one of the problems, The mark itself is not correct or it is not applied in the typical manner.

Now Mr. Wittmann? I was unaware of with his ad, but I am aware of a piece on his site that is also wrong in my opinion and bears a similar mark and is also not a noted piece or style. The interesting thing is I have it on my desktop and the mark has similar traits.

So this box is actually the second piece I have issue with, I did not post Mr. Wittmann's piece because I know he does not specialize in Allach and I took the pictures, so there was no sense in bashing the piece until another came up.

The box, mind you if real?? would have to be late war. It cant be early, or it would not make sense for a number of reasons. And even if late war? which is the only way I could go with it, it is crude and would have to be some screwed up piece for sure. That is why I got twisted over it, because as most know, I am opinionated and usually take a hard line with pieces that are not in line with the norm. This is why I really have issue, as I cannot make a legitimate call without the box and that is a problem when we take all the new fakes coming out into play.

The second piece is also wartime, as it is colored in mustard yellow. The problem is it does not look right, now that is a pretty generic analysis and certainly not scientific by any means. But we are dealing with fake pieces and real pieces that are being altered. One of the alterations is coloring.

Now Thorsten, you know I can sit here and type 3 pages on why I think these are both fake or altered, and all of the reasons would be based on legitimate study. But if I do?? and these are fake? then I would be handing them a recipe for perfect Allach. And I am not going to do it.

Here is the second piece, the photo's are off of Wittmann's site. I mailed him 2 weeks ago with an opinion and he responded that the piece was a consignment item or from a picker in Germany and it looked o.k to him. I cant call this one either and its outside the box, and it just feels wrong. And we have 2 markings both similar on 2 suspect piece's and one has an octagon. The box needs to be inspected, its the only way to really know or make a call based on its individual attributes. And keep in mind, this is the first piece that I have seen that just not clean cut. Its not like these have been floating around for years now.

These are new, and they come in around the same time and bear similar issues. Could be an ad in Dachau, or it could be a faker in Dachau. The seller of the box has been selling a lot of Allach, most repaired but he calls them as they are. But he listed 3 pieces that day. Two of the pieces were just off top retail and this one listed as "Super Rare" and "Never seen" was priced as if it were in a garage sale. Am I expected to believe that a man that is so in touch with market value and Allach could under price an item by 75% or more?? Would you??.

I hope they are real Thorsten, but look at these photo's real close. Real close!

Kind Regards,

Kris

[Robin Lumsden]

The kulturzeichen on that last one looks hand-painted.

[Thorsten B.]

Hi Kris,

thanks again for the pics! I did not notice this piece before because I do not look so often onto Wittmann´s site.
But to make it short for this: it is definitely not a piece belonging to any kind of services Allach ordered from Rosenthal, Victoria or lateron Bohemia.
Last possibility: could be a piece belonging to the projected "Diplomaten-Service" by Wilhelm Wagenfeld in 1943 but since this had never been issued this piece is just what it appears to me: a normal Art Déco piece from an unknown maker, maybe colored later, maybe not but the mark is obviously handmade and does not belong to this.

I did not know that he offered it for low price, though - a good advice!

Kind regards,

Thorsten