SS Officers Bullion Sleeve Eagle

[Rich Moran]

Is this eagle correct on this tunic on E-Stand?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=291258

Quite awhile back, John Pic had started a thread on a forum that had a number of these bullion eagles listed, and over the years I have seen a number of them, purchased some and have seen images of many.

(In edit, the ones I have purchase have luckily proved to be original with one exception, and the images that were put up in Johns other thread accross the net were those of both original and repros so one could see the differences. That thread was a great resource and sadly I think has been lost to cyber space)

One thing I have not seen in the past is what this bird has on it. If you look at there the wing tops end closest to the body, notice that the bullion is uneven. Where the left side has fewer strands, lays into the body higher than the right side. It is quite uneven.

Am I seeing something that is perhaps an anomoly for one bird or has others seen this before?

There are not many bullion ealges on this forum to review, and luckily I preserved the previous images for my own research and on those and from th emany books I have yet to see one that looks like this.

[Felix]

Its not an eagle Im comfortable with. IMO its a repro.

[Robin Lumsden]

It's not an eagle I'm comfortable with.

Ditto!

[Seiler]

Dbl ditto....
Seiler

[dukhunter]

SS Officer's Bullion Sleeve Eagle

Hi Gents,

Go to page 309 of Mike Beavers "Uniforms of the W-SS", volume 1 and you'll find a very similar eagle on a tunic that belonged to Karl Wolff. Thanks.

George

[John Pic]

Its a good eagle.Ive seen it. It however has at some point in time been cleaned or was on the tunic when it was cleaned and the bullion has been effected.Look in the crevices and you can see shinier bullion. These were done by hand so uneven strands is better than picture perfect. With repros you start seeing repeats of the same eagles such as this version which has been around lately.

[Rich Moran]

Hi Gents,

Go to page 309 of Mike Beavers "Uniforms of the W-SS", volume 1 and you'll find a very similar eagle on a tunic that belonged to Karl Wolff. Thanks.

George

George, that eagle on pg 309 does not look anything like the one I see on the estand thread. The eagle on page 309 shows where the wing tops enter the body of the bird an even line accross the birds body from one side to the other, what one would expect with these on an officers tunic.

John, you say it is original and I am not stating one way or the other, but in all the images, handled and ones I have owned previous with (edit to state: "originals") I have yet to see one where this anomoly is shown on another bird. My impression of the condition of the bullion, such as that of not being bright is not the concern, but that of the eagles wings construction at where the wings enter the body at the top, one side being larger than the other.

It is not something that is really minor, becuase up close it is off balance in a way that to me seems to be unusual for accepted use.

[John Pic]

"I have yet to see one that looks like this." show me another like it and I might agree on the possiblity of it being fake.

Other things to take into consideration

1.Matching rayon piped shoulder boards that match the tunic condition. Very difficult to aquire loose in the past 10 or so years.
2. Original set of matching collar tabs that also reflect the tunics condition. Mant of the tunics with known fake eagles also had questionable tabs or the minty Dachau type officer tabs found in sets with blank rank tabs that appear on tunics with fake litzen( one of the hardest original components to find)Many have fale poorly made tabs like the poorly made Sieder eagles.
Why put all these original components on a tunic and then a fake eagle of an oddball variety?

I once owned the tunic in question I sold it because it showed little use other than minor sweat stains that someone had actually tried to clean. I dont know what the effects of dry cleaning are but the tunic was cleaned at some point.IMO an original tunic and it was owned before me by another forum member for some time.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Rich Moran]

"I have yet to see one that looks like this." show me another like it and I might agree on the possiblity of it being fake.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

John, that could go the other way too, show me another original with provenance and I would then understand that perhaps the anomoly is something that indeed occured.

I can understand that perhaps in production that many of these eagles had problems due to being hand made, but in the end were these not accepted by inspectors for sales to the uniform market?

I know that we have limited resources to discover all of the eagles that were made, but in all the images from publications and those in collections is it possible that others do exsist?

Maybe calling these the dislocated shoulder eagle!

[jimt]

eagle

I think the eagle is a fake also, not for me..
jim

[John Pic]

One thing I cannot do is tell when something was sewn onto a tunic or where a tunic originated so with something like this you have to look at individual parts. The eagle is a definate oddball and I dont always agree with Jim Toncar on what real eagles should or should not look like except that the ones he does like are the textbook variety.

I am convinced too that most of the SS tunics today are restored or remade from parts and or fake. This is a real tunic with real insignias...questionable eagle in some opinions, when it was sewn together there are no guarantees.

[dukhunter]

SS Officers Bullion Sleeve Eagle

Hi Rich,

I'm with John on this one. Anything thing that is hand done can be different from piece to piece and in some cases the differences can be fairly significant. I'm going to refer you again to Mr. Beaver's Volume 1, page 209. Look at that eagle, not very symmetric. Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I like to keep my options open and don't want to be too quick to judge when it comes to these hand done items. I like this eagle. Just my 2 cents worth. Thank you.

George

[Rich Moran]

Hi Rich,

I'm with John on this one. Anything thing that is hand done can be different from piece to piece and in some cases the differences can be fairly significant. I'm going to refer you again to Mr. Beaver's Volume 1, page 209. Look at that eagle, not very symmetric. Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I like to keep my options open and don't want to be too quick to judge when it comes to these hand done items. I like this eagle. Just my 2 cents worth. Thank you.

George

This is like getting a good pair of combat boots and then having to ruck 25 miles in them.

If this were my tunic that I had just had the tailor do the work for me, I would be rather perturbed at the ineptness of the the person involved with that bird, and then having someone take the time to stich it to the tunic.

I am thinking along the lines of my profession in the SS is paramount and I am wearing my resume for what I do.

The quality of the manufacture looks to be wartime, but based on traditions of that time and dress, I am turned off on this bird.

John, years ago loose officers bullion eagles were much easier to locate than today as your well aware from your last hunt, and I am sure in the early to mid period of collectors filling collections many of those loose ones were added to a tunic. If done in the mid 60's, can one discern settling compared to one produced mid 30's - 45? That is tough to do.

I recognize that the the collector has to answer for what they will accept too.

Another thought is there a possiblity the bird was find in the manufactures warehouse in a box as illustration to show workers of what not to produce?

The bird I believe your referencing George I think is actually on page 201, as the top of the left wing is higher than that on the right, but still, in that image the tops of the shoulders of the wings enter the body in a horizontal line would be the best description giving an accepted balance overall.

I have an easier time with this bird based on other facts also such as wreath construction and detailed head even though that head looks like its dehydrating.

[John Pic]

Again your logic is a bit flawed, If an SS officer would settle for this then why not that one.This is 100% real with period photos to back it.If you look at the books all the way through there are more than a few bizzare eagles with odd shapes. Even one on a tunic credited to Jim Toncar that looks like it was embroidered by a 6 year old.

[John Pic]

Here is another real eagle with a dipped head