Announcement

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 01:08 AM

Some people believe that the absence of a tic mark next to the Totenkopfring box on a Führerkarte rules out that person as being a ring owner when attempting to narrow down ownership possibilities among multiple persons with the same having been recipients of Totenkopfrings. Note the absence of a tic mark next to the Totenkopfring box on Schlotter’s Führerkarte below. Schlotter’s Personalakte contains around 100 pages of documents, yet none indicate his possession of a Totenkopfring. Sometimes ownership of a Totenkopfring can be determined by examination of a Fragebogen (questionnaire) where a block for Totenkopfrings can be found, however, Schlotter completed that document prior to 1937. On rare occasions an actual dated award document can be found in the file.

Attached Files

Schlotter,-Eugen---1.jpg (99.9 KB, 581 views)

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 01:09 AM

This week we have seen the claim from a reputed expert that Totenkopfring ownership was recorded in DALs prior to the ring being engraved and delivered to the recipient. In the December 1937 DAL Eugen Schlotter can be found at number 4768. No Totenkopfring is indicated.

Attached Files

1937-DAL---200-1a.jpg (114.8 KB, 579 views)

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 01:12 AM

The first published DAL where ownership of a Totenkopfring can be confirmed is December 1938 at number 3450. Perhaps these facts relating to when Schlotter’s Totenkopfring was recorded in period documents are isolated examples are isolated examples or maybe they are not. Possibly different practices existed in 1935 and 1936. Hopefully, other members can submit different factual examples.

John

Attached Files

1938-DAL---Page-152---3434a.jpg (135.8 KB, 582 views)

**RaymondG** · 02-01-2008, 04:01 AM

Hi John

Thank you for your learned comments and a rock solid example to prove the point.

The lack of a tick in the Führerkarte regarding a totenkopfring certainly does not prove that the person never received one. I have seen many examples where the file has not been updated.

It is logical for a time lag to exist between the issuing of the ring and it appearing in the Dienstaltersliste and illogical for it to appear in the officer list before the person had actually received the ring.

I am hoping that members will send through some sample data to check against and add to this thread.

Raymond

**clevischi** · 02-01-2008, 04:32 AM

A very nice example, John.
Thank you for showing it.

**RaymondG** · 02-01-2008, 06:10 AM

Hi

"Some people believe that the absence of a tic mark next to the Totenkopfring box on a Führerkarte rules out that person as being a ring owner when attempting to narrow down ownership possibilities among multiple persons with the same having been recipients of Totenkopfrings"

Here is another example to dispel the assertion.

Here is the Führerkarte for Dr. Claus Günther. Note that the box regarding a totenkopfring is blank.

Attached Files

Günther, Claus Führerkarte.jpg (119.6 KB, 549 views)

**RaymondG** · 02-01-2008, 06:12 AM

Here is the entry from the October 1944 Dienstaltersliste.

Günther clearly has been issued a totenkopfring.

So, I think that the examples shown clearly put that myth to bed.

Attached Files

Günther, Claus - October 1944.jpg (6.5 KB, 543 views)

**DR DOLCH** · 02-01-2008, 10:24 AM

I do not think any conclution can be made on this subject.Like so many other items in this hobby sometimes it's this way and sometimes its that way. plus with so few original rings around it's hard to get a consensus.Perhaps it is just a matter of when the application was received in relation to when the SS DAL was sent to the printers.I am stumped on why there are no 1935 dated rings around.I am also stumped on why any original ring is not $10,000.00 at least(:}X

**ErichS** · 02-01-2008, 06:14 PM

Thanks John for posting this information. This just shows that we are all only students in this hobby.

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 09:58 PM

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Today another collector reminded me of some interesting documents of the Ritterkreuzträger SS-Standartenführer Rudolf Pannier that he knew I had. This document from April 13, 1944 from Pannier to the SS-Personalkanzlei is clearly an application for a Totenkopfring and shows receipt by that office on April 25. It also references application procedures from August 1942 for such rings. I'm not sure of the meaning of the date stamp of Nov. 20, 1944 on the bottom of the document.

John

Attached Files

Pannier,-Rudolf---86a.jpg (59.4 KB, 440 views)

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 10:01 PM

The November 1944 DAL did not indicate Pannier, number 1221, as possessing a Totenkopfring.

Attached Files

P-2.jpg (115.5 KB, 437 views)

**John P. Moore** · 02-01-2008, 10:03 PM

Pannier did receive a Totenkopfring as this undated document found in his Personalakte would appear to confirm. However, the block for a Totenkopfring on the front of his Führerkarte is not checked.

Attached Files

Pannier,-Rudolf---87a.jpg (48.5 KB, 438 views)

**DR DOLCH** · 02-01-2008, 11:02 PM

For what ever reason both examples in this thead show that an honor ring was not listed in the DAL until the next year after application or reception of the ring.There is no 1945 DAL so that is speculation.

**Panzer Rob** · 02-01-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by DR DOLCH View Post

For what ever reason both examples in this thead show that an honor ring was not listed in the DAL until the next year after application or reception of the ring.

Correct. Which would lead me to believe that the unsubstantiated claims made in another thread that the opposite was the case is, in fact, incorrect.

Rob

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