Metal eagle and skull question

[Richard]

I had obtained this cap quite some time ago. Supposed to be an SS smoke troops visor. The interior lining and sweatband has been replaced. I have always wondered about the metal insignia I had taken them off the cap years before I became a serious TR collector, and neglected to scan the reverse. I do remember the skull had an RZM mark but then 2 number separated by a slash with no M letter preceding them. One of the numbers was 3 digit (299 or 499, if I recall) The eagle had the regular RZM mark with an M number. I can pull the eagle up enough to see that the prongs are rounded. The skull appears to have rounded pins too.

Unfortunately it is pretty hard to scan these while still attached to the cap. I didn't want to try to remove them as I recall that one of the prongs developed a crack in it as I was placing them back in the cap and don't want to risk breaking them. I have seen some of the more tenured SS collectors be able to ID originals from the obverse only and thought I'd try to post these for opinions.

Sorry for my scans. They apparantly need to be higher resolution. For some reason the eagle's head didn't scan real well. It has more detail to the eye and beak than the scan seems to indicate. Any help to ID these would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Richard V

[SScollector]

Unfortunately, I must say that you appear to have reproductions. This is not the correct skull pattern for a 499, (Fritz Zimmermann), but instead, it has the front side pattern of a Deschler. Of course, it appears cast and is still not near 100% proper for an original Deschler. In fact, it looks like it might be a silver set. Are there any silver markings anywhere else on them? Look around the edges and everywhere. Anyway, the eagle looks very bad too.

Best,
Chris

[Richard]

thanks for the input Chris. If I remember (I'm leaning to this from memory) correctly the skull was actually marked a 299. I wish I could get it off again without breaking a prong to get the exact number designation but I fear to try. There were no silver markings anywhere on the set. The skull looks really bad from the scan but is in actuality very smooth with no pits. I really probably need to take them in to a show and see if anyone can look at them in person. I just can't seem to get decent scans of these while the are on the hat and my camera can't really get good close ups.
Richard V

[bwanek1]

I really probably need to take them in to a show and see if anyone can look at them in person.

No, you don't. You really need to just listen to what Chris has said. He knows what he is talking about and is likely to give you far better information than anyone you are likely to find at a show.

299 would be completely bogus. 499 is a good maker number, but not for this skull. Round pins on a skull = fake. There is little point in arguing the finer details when so much is wrong on a basic level.

Brad

[Richard]

So then all genuine skulls have flat pins? I can definitely see the pins are round on both the eagle and the skull as I can lift them away from the cap enough to see that much. I suppose if they are fake I could take the risk of the pin breaking off by removal to get a scan of the reverse side and see what the RZM markings actually are. However if round pins are a killer, there may really be no need.

Richard V

[Arran]

Round pins are OK on the later unmarked or 'ges. gesch' marked skulls...

[bwanek1]

Round pins are OK on the later unmarked or 'ges. gesch' marked skulls...

True. I was not making a statement regarding a "rule" for determining fake from original for any skull, just this skull. The front of this skull is clearly a Deschler style. The skulls you describe accurately as having the round soldered pins are Assmanns. There should, however, be no round pins on any original Deschler.

[Richard]

Maybe it is a matter of looking at hundreds of these, but I've always been amazed at the ability to recognize the maker from the front only. Thanks for the help. Now I am curious as to what number is really on the reverse! I may have to chance it. I'll post pictures of the visor in a separate thread to see if any of it is original.
Richard V

[SScollector]

Brad, I just wanted to clarify, (you may have just forgotten about these), that there was one rare variation of Deschler skulls that sometimes had round pins. That is the "254/42" marked skulls, (SS contract number), and they can come either way, (round without discs, or flat with discs). Anyway, these are seldom encountered but the insignia above, has no hope, I'm afraid.

Best,
Chris

[bwanek1]

Brad, I just wanted to clarify, (you may have just forgotten about these), that there was one rare variation of Deschler skulls that sometimes had round pins. That is the "254/42" marked skulls, (SS contract number), and they can come either way, (round without discs, or flat with discs). Anyway, these are seldom encountered but the insignia above, has no hope, I'm afraid.

Best,
Chris

Damn, I had forgotten about those. Thanks for reminding me and keeping me from giving bad information.

Still, as you say, this one has no hope.

Cheers,
Brad

[Richard]

Well I took the plunge and got the skull off of the cap. As I was afraid the one prong broke off. To my astonishment (and to the embarassment of my memory) the skull is marked 254/42 on the rear. Have these markings appeared on reproductions? I acquired this set about 6 years ago. The RZM is dead center at the top of the skull and the numbers directly below it. It has no other marks on the reverse or along the edges that I can find. I will try to get some better scans now that it is off of the cap and post them this weekend.
Richard V

[SScollector]

Yes, fakes do exist, and there have been some around for much longer than 6 years ago. Looking forward to the better pics.

Best,
Chris

[Richard]

double post

[Richard]

Ok here are some more scans, one of the front and one of the rear. The rear shot was not flush with the glass as the pin prevented it from laying flat. I didn't want to stress the pin by bending it down since I have already broken one off. The numbers and RZM mark are all in relief not stamped in. The lighting gives the impression that they are incuse. The reverse shot has the top of the skull resting on the glass while the bottom edge is raised a bit away from the glass due to the pin.
Richard V

[bwanek1]

I wouldn't be too worried about that pin if I were you.