"Pink" smock or not?

[nutmeg]

Thats what I thought.

The stamps are a red herring.

or not

[brooksbz]

The bottom factory pics does NOT look like a happy factory.

That's why they did not or could not sew straight.

[kammo man]

What IF we find out that it DID exist?

What then?

What use is posting hypothetical questions, lets stick to research to answer that.

9 10th of this entire thread is made up hypothetical versions of events.

[historyguy]

Okay, and now we are discussing moon rocks? This thread isn't long enough already that now we have to discuss the moon?

Thank you, Bob for your comments, and Tim, I'm glad you enjoyed my post.

My thoughts regarding the stamps: If the stamps are original and were put there by Soviet film or museum personnel, it would indicate to me that both the smocks and undisputed originals came from the same source. If the stamps are fake-- or are original and put there by a faker-- it would indicate to me that both the smocks and undisputed originals came from the same source.

But, I cannot provide any facts that would prove one theory over the other.

[kammo man]

That's why they did not or could not sew straight.

You are evil.

[phild]

Based on these pictures, the pattern is obviously different and not simply extended.

Ian

I have in years past matched the accepted OL smock side by side with my Birch smock...it takes a second to get oriented because you obviously have to correspond the area you are looking at on both items. I was able to match everything down to the 6 inchs or so where the Birch had to be extended.

Now that does not mean that every mm of the design is exact in terms of sharpness and precise shape, but it is all same designs.

What seems to be missing for so many here to understand is that these smocks were NOT made using German supplied material(s) OR German supplied templates for the camo design to be applied to the rollers or German supplied anything else.....except the buttons that would have come form the TWL contracting the smock....there would have really been thousands of those there as they carried extra supplies and much of the old uniforms coming back from the front was broken down there.

The factories (yes more than one because one printed the fabric and another made the smocks!) that made these essentially had to reverse engineer a sample SS smock...it is that simple....Nothing else was (necessarily) sent from Germany for these to be made. Once we all get a grip on that fact these become much easier to understand.

Whether these were made in 1943 or 1979 the basic steps were the same....and they were a HUGE undertaking. The cloth HAD to have been printed on roller machines not different from WWII era machines....on the right SIZE material and using the same process with similar dyes....that is beyond any argument. The camo templates were traced from an actual full example of OL and extended and color coded and several other steps taken. The sample M42 smock was possibly disassembled at all seams and patterns made from it.....but good pattern makers could also copy it precisely without taking it apart...but it would be harder and take longer......either way a lot of work.

The making of these smocks, even 500, and I suspect that maybe 4000 were produced wartime......was a true industrial scale undertaking......thousand meters of material for only 500 of these....many thousands of meters of thread, 2000 buttons, 500 or more meters of elastic, 100 meters of hbt......dozens of workers, a roller fabric printing factory, a cutting room.....a bank of industrial sewing machines.....this is fact not speculation.

If all of this sounds too far out to believe, perhaps we should look at the W-SS Tropical jacket and trousers......lets compare the sewing of these items to SS KZ or TEXLED made items....to include thread the composition pebbled buttons and the fabric and see how much of any of those materials we can find in other SS clothing production.

[90th Light]

Okay, and now we are discussing moon rocks? This thread isn't long enough already that now we have to discuss the moon?

The digression about "man on the moon" and "moon rocks" came up in response to this post number 2081;

"If you were told that in a certain planet revolving around Sirius there is a race of donkeys who speak the English language and spend their time in discussing eugenics, you could not disprove the statement, but would it, on that account, have any claim to be believed? Some minds would be prepared to accept it, if it were reiterated often enough, through the potent force of suggestion."- J. B. Bury

I certainly see plenty of reiteration, here. But little evidence, and certainly no proof. The burden of proof is on the believer to prove that something is real. Showing pictures of helmet covers with different thread colors proves nothing. Is the hope that these will become real if enough ink is spilled?

I was left wondering why bring planets, sirus, donkeys and eugenics into this debate at all ? Other than to try and belittle some people and their point of view.

Thus if we are going to talk about "planets" then lets talk about a "real" question of space history that some believe and some do not. Let alone getting on to "moon rocks"

On the other hand we can just stay on the topic of German uniforms and not mention "space" at all by anyone, that would have been my choice,

Chris

[historyguy]

The making of these smocks, even 500, and I suspect that maybe 4000 were produced wartime......was a true industrial scale undertaking......thousand meters of material for only 500 of these....many thousands of meters of thread, 2000 buttons, 500 or more meters of elastic, 100 meters of hbt......dozens of workers, a roller fabric printing factory, a cutting room.....a bank of industrial sewing machines.....this is fact not speculation.

NO!!! NO NO NO NO

This is NOT fact, it IS speculation.

[90th Light]

NO!!! NO NO NO NO

This is NOT fact, it IS speculation.

How is that "speculation", it is basic Cost Accounting. If you take any product off any production line, you can break it down into the components of

1/ labour processes/ time

2/ direct variable cost of component parts/ material used

3/ Overhead - fixed & variable, indirect & direct.


All phild has done in his post is given a breakdown of the variable cost components and some labor steps directly associated with the making type 2 SS smocks.

The only speculation would be the number made i.e. 500 verses 2000 verses 5000 ? Who can answer this for sure. Thus all one can do is speculate what the economy of scale might have been at the time.

However, there is one thing any accountant could state with certainty. Some sort of economy of scale had to be happening in regard to the production of the "Birch" smock. This is because of the number of labor intensive steps and number of machines used increases the total cost greatly.

Given what these were sold for in 1980-81. Then the production location/ situation would have had to achieve a reasonable economy of scale producing them in sufficient numbers, to lower the average total cost per unit for it to be viable operation.

This pressure to lower average costs get even worse if a sufficent margin is to be made to generate a reasonable profit after tax.

"FACT" for any factory production or product made this way,

Chris

[NZMark]

NO!!! NO NO NO NO

This is NOT fact, it IS speculation.

Only to a point - I asked the question a long time ago - how many of these smocks are out there? 500 or 4000, this was not two guys with a bunch of rusty old needles with a weekend to kill...
The point (fact) being the set-up cost to manufacture all these smocks was enormous.
Mark

[salt*creek]

I want to smoke what they have in New Zealand!

[90th Light]

I want to smoke what they have in New Zealand!

Are you telling me that a basic overview of Cost Accounting for a factory operation or even KZ clothing production is too much for some to be able to comprehend ?

Yet they are telling us all how "original" SS type 2 smocks are made and the finer points of their production technique plus idiosyncrasies,

Well, I ask again, how much do we really know about the KZ, firms, factories & businesses that made SS smocks ?

Chris

p.s. I kinda like my typo, "SS type 2 smokes". Fits in nicely with your post

[kammo man]

I want to smoke what they have in New Zealand!

NO Chris,
Hes implying that you are all quite mad in NZ.

And as I used to have a Maouri girlfriend and know the people he could be on to something.

Dang her brother was a big guy.
I made sure he was my buddy.

owen

[kammo man]

I have in years past matched the accepted OL smock side by side with my Birch smock...it takes a second to get oriented because you obviously have to correspond the area you are looking at on both items. I was able to match everything down to the 6 inchs or so where the Birch had to be extended.

Now that does not mean that every mm of the design is exact in terms of sharpness and precise shape, but it is all same designs.

What seems to be missing for so many here to understand is that these smocks were NOT made using German supplied material(s) OR German supplied templates for the camo design to be applied to the rollers or German supplied anything else.....except the buttons that would have come form the TWL contracting the smock....there would have really been thousands of those there as they carried extra supplies and much of the old uniforms coming back from the front was broken down there.

The factories (yes more than one because one printed the fabric and another made the smocks!) that made these essentially had to reverse engineer a sample SS smock...it is that simple....Nothing else was (necessarily) sent from Germany for these to be made. Once we all get a grip on that fact these become much easier to understand.

Whether these were made in 1943 or 1979 the basic steps were the same....and they were a HUGE undertaking. The cloth HAD to have been printed on roller machines not different from WWII era machines....on the right SIZE material and using the same process with similar dyes....that is beyond any argument. The camo templates were traced from an actual full example of OL and extended and color coded and several other steps taken. The sample M42 smock was possibly disassembled at all seams and patterns made from it.....but good pattern makers could also copy it precisely without taking it apart...but it would be harder and take longer......either way a lot of work.

The making of these smocks, even 500, and I suspect that maybe 4000 were produced wartime......was a true industrial scale undertaking......thousand meters of material for only 500 of these....many thousands of meters of thread, 2000 buttons, 500 or more meters of elastic, 100 meters of hbt......dozens of workers, a roller fabric printing factory, a cutting room.....a bank of industrial sewing machines.....this is fact not speculation.

If all of this sounds too far out to believe, perhaps we should look at the W-SS Tropical jacket and trousers......lets compare the sewing of these items to SS KZ or TEXLED made items....to include thread the composition pebbled buttons and the fabric and see how much of any of those materials we can find in other SS clothing production.

P ,
You mentioned the were not German made with German ingredients.
So why are we still debating this.
Lets move it to the International section where it belongs.
Cuz its Not SS MADE in AN SS FACTORY by a long shot.

owen

[nutmeg]

Only to a point - I asked the question a long time ago - how many of these smocks are out there? 500 or 4000, this was not two guys with a bunch of rusty old needles with a weekend to kill...
The point (fact) being the set-up cost to manufacture all these smocks was enormous.
Mark

Regardless of whether you think Floch made them or they are pre WW2 it was a big deal to set up the printing and sew them up. From what I understand here Floch was wholesaling them at around $100-150 each (correct? ) If there are a few hundred out there how much could he have made?Not a lot . However, if he bought them as he claims the price might have been more like $10.00 -20.00 each making it a very worthwhile deal.