"Pink" smock or not?

[nutmeg]

1 [quote=glenn mcinnes;7209966]right,but this way of thinking can also be used to "explain away" anything that is fake.

I don't understand why someone won't get the fabric,dye or whatever tested on these so this pink smock can be put to bed for good...these discussions will never get anywhere as there are 2 sides who won't budge,the believers vs the non-believers.

The same as what doug b did with the fake champagne ss helmet decals..science!!






I was thinking of looking into it. However, the only thing it might prove is that there is a post war (1945-80 )dye ingredient which of course would be definitive . If there isn't one it still won't prove much of anything. The non-believers will just say "they used the correct type of dyes ".

A very big difference from a decal and paint , i don't think you can use the same comparison. An example in a russian museum given to them by the ministry of defence in 1947 ,however , would be indisputable . I think a discovery like that would settle the issue.

[Glenn McInnes]

I agree with the last part, Glenn - but lets flip this - what if everyone thought these were original. Let's pretend the burden is on those to who don't like these smocks to nail them as fakes...
Great photo, Nick!
Mark

If everyone thought they were original then we would not be involved in a 130 plus page thread about them.

You can't base originality on some post war Soviet stamps that may or may not be real...For all we know who ever made the stamp fuc-ed up and they should read 1974.

Or if Floch got them from the Czech republic or not...We don't know that for sure and it is just hearsay...Maybe he is telling the truth or maybe he is not,in spite of what anyone says about his character...Maybe he got them from someone who said they got them from there.




Glenn

[Glenn McInnes]

I was thinking of looking into it. However, the only thing it might prove is that there is a post war (1945-80 )dye ingredient which of course would be definitive . If there isn't one it still won't prove much of anything. The non-believers will just say "they used the correct type of dyes ".

A very big difference from a decal and paint , i don't think you can use the same comparison. An example in a russian museum given to them by the ministry of defence in 1947 ,however , would be indisputable . I think a discovery like that would settle the issue.

Well Don at least you are trying by calling Museums etc...Most of the others are just copying things they are finding on the internet and posting them here..Basically just other collectors opinions on them. (now they are magically called a "Birch" smock due to 1 persons input on them)

I would look into getting some sort of testing done if you can.




Glenn

[salt*creek]

There were so many of these around back in the 80's, we all used them to reenact! I dug up a couple old photos.

[Disco Partisan]

One point (not a theory) - someone commented earlier that it had taken over 100 pages for the those who believe in these smocks to put their case forward - and still not prove originality.
The converse is also applicable - after over 100 pages, the naysayers have also not disproved originality...(it's not original because I say so doesn't count).
Reading with interest.
Mark

Naysayers have to disprove nothing Because pink smocks have never been proved to be original.

[nutmeg]

Well Don at least you are trying by calling Museums etc...Most of the others are just copying things they are finding on the internet and posting them here..Basically just other collectors opinions on them. (now they are magically called a "Birch" smock due to 1 persons input on them)

I would look into getting some sort of testing done if you can.




Glenn

I am trying. Here is some information on dyes at the time. Germany was certainly the world leader by a longshot



German hegemony was particularly strong in Eastern Europe, where, for example, Czechoslovakia's leading dye-maker, Spolek, came
under the control of IG Farben. After the Soviet Union entered the war in 1941 its aniline production was increased, but dye production
declined.60

International Dye-making from the 1950s
The break-up of IG Farben. New manufacturing nations. Expansion in Japan and India. Reorganization in Europe after 1960. Decline in
the United States.

In 1945, the Allied Control Council took charge of the assets of IG Farben, and teams of Allied scientific and technical investigators
delved into the secrets of all aspects of German industry. Their findings, the US FIAT (Field Intelligence Agency Technical) and British
BIOS (British Intelligence Objective Subcommittee) reports, were made widely available, and textbooks on dyemaking began to cite
German advances from the 1930s (notably Krishnasamy Venkataraman's two volume Chemistry of Synthetic Dyes, based on his visit to
post-war Germany). These included water soluble dyes for cellulose acetate, metallized azo dyes for nylon 6, direct cotton dyes, and
benzo fast chrome dyes for wool and cellulose.

Soon it was agreed that the German factories that had once made up IG Farben would be released from allied control. The successors
to Hoechst and Bayer were formed in 1951, and BASF in 1952; the BASF plant in French hands was released in March 1953. Bayer,
formerly in the British zone, continued with dyes alongside other synthetic products, medicinals, plastics, etc., and absorbed AGFA.
Hoechst, formerly in the American zone, took over Cassella in 1969.

During the 1940s and early 1950s research was aimed at fast dyes for cellulose, colorants for the increasingly popular nylon and other
new synthetics, and chemical theory as it related to color, constitution and dye fastness. Progress was made with new azo, basic,
anthraquinone, indigoid, sulfur, and phthalocyanine dyes. Pre-war developments were followed up. For example, ICI had introduced its
Solacet range of water soluble dyes for cellulose acetate as early as 1933; L. B. Holliday had launched the Supracet disperse dyes for
acetate and, later, nylon.

Around 1950, most dyes were applied to cotton and viscose rayon, and some sixty new direct cotton dyes appeared, mainly from Bayer,
CIBA, Geigy and Sandoz.

The companies that IG Farben had controlled in Europe reverted to their original, or state, ownership. These included Spolek in
Czechoslovakia. During the early 1950s, new nations began the manufacture of synthetic dyestuffs, including Argentina, India, and
Mexico.61 Subsequently, European firms opened up manufacturing units in developing countries, participated in joint ventures, and
took over established business. The growth of textile industries outside of Western Europe and the United States, where they were in
decline, and restrictions over the use of many traditional dye-making chemicals, encouraged the expansion of dye-making elsewhere.

[David Fettes]

DP and Owen, can I just ask, if these were original wartime photos, would you be able to tell they were pinks?

[nutmeg]

Why would they be stamped in genuine items as well ?

If everyone thought they were original then we would not be involved in a 130 plus page thread about them.

You can't base originality on some post war Soviet stamps that may or may not be real...For all we know who ever made the stamp fuc-ed up and they should read 1974.

Or if Floch got them from the Czech republic or not...We don't know that for sure and it is just hearsay...Maybe he is telling the truth or maybe he is not,in spite of what anyone says about his character...Maybe he got them from someone who said they got them from there.




Glenn

[salt*creek]

The pattern is wrong so yes.

[Disco Partisan]

Agree - I asked the question way back at the beginning - if the fakers made such a bloody good effort on everything else but 'got the colour wrong', why not simply run an improved colour batch? Where is 'the next generation' of these?
'Salting' original through reproduction is as old as Moses - but defacing 100% unquestionable items with reproduction stamps....?? That just devalues the original short and long term (and these guys only think short term - Since he has been accused of perpetuating this scam, is Mr. Floch is still making money out of these after +/-36 years?) In the pre-internet days the only benefit in doing so would be Ted telling Roger in a letter or on the phone that he thinks he knows of an original set of trousers with the same stamps - but how many collectors KNEW about the stamps, and of those that did - how many thought the stamps original? After all, these were being sold AS FAKES! Boy that helps the sale of those original camo trousers with the bogus stamps....
Doesn't make monetary sense to have done so - and I've looked at that argument too from as many angles as I can come up with.
Mark

What are you talking about when saying: "these were being sold AS FAKES "? Have you read this thread at all?
These pink smocks were being originally sold AS Original

[Glenn McInnes]

Why would they be stamped in genuine items as well ?

I think that has already been discussed.









Glenn

[NickG]

Good ol' CHG! I remember those days ! Camp Roberts etc...About 20 years ago for me...

The California Historical Group, founded in 1979 and incorporated in 1992, a non-profit organization that is recognized by the Department of Defense,
as a World War Two educational and reenactment organization. (36 years and still going strong!)


Lookin' good in pink!

Showing the thinner foliage loops...and Bob's comparison shot showing both styles...Why did the faker do this? A very elaborate hoax for sure! or???

[90th Light]

Right,but this way of thinking can also be used to "explain away" anything that is fake.

I don't understand why someone won't get the fabric,dye or whatever tested on these so this pink smock can be put to bed for good...These discussions will never get anywhere as there are 2 sides who won't budge,the believers vs the non-believers.

The same as what Doug B did with the fake champagne SS helmet decals..SCIENCE!!

Glenn

Hello Glenn,

I have asked the industrial chemist (ex-Vietnam) if he could carry out this test for us. He said he could but there are challenges right from the start.

1/ he needs a big laboratory along the lines of ICI, DuPont or the main facilities of a chemistry department of some universities etc

2/ he needs samples cut off that can be destroyed during testing

3/ it will not prove much. All we will find is dye types, fixers, components & structures that the Germans invented during the 1930's. They were light years ahead. German dye technology was stolen/ taken over by Allied nations after WW2 throughout the 1950's. By the 1960's it was mainstream with most companies.

All those oranges, lime greens, bright yellows of the "FAB 60's" began with the development of colours for German SS smocks in the 1930's. They discovered the breakthroughs which allowed them to have such a range of dye fixed colour. A lead the world has copied and adopted ever since.

He could show differences between a 1940 USA dye and 1940 German dye. The USA was also a technological leader in dye manufacture in the first half of the 20th Century. However, by the 1960's the USA had adopted what the Germans had worked out that they had not, and combined it with their dye production. Thus he probably could not show much if any difference between an 1940 German dye and a 1960 USA dye or even a 1960 UK dye.

1940 German dyes contained what was to become the norm.

Then again, if they were made in another part of the Reich, may there are differences ? However, did the SS supply dye technology to those companies producing for them ? After all the SS owned shares in, or fully owned some dye companies in the Third Reich,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

Hello Glenn,

I have asked the industrial chemist (ex-Vietnam) if he could carry out this test for us. He said he could but there are challenges right from the start.

1/ he needs a big laboratory along the lines of ICI, DuPont or the main facilities of a chemistry department of some universities etc

2/ he needs samples cut off that can be destroyed during testing

3/ it will not prove much. All we will find is dye types, fixers, components & structures that the Germans invented during the 1930's. They were light years ahead. German dye technology was stolen/ taken over by Allied nations after WW2 throughout the 1950's. By the 1960's it was mainstream with most companies.

All those oranges, lime greens, bright yellows of the "FAB 60's" began with the development of colours for German SS smocks in the 1930's. They discovered the breakthroughs which allowed them to have such a range of dye fixed colour. A lead the world has copied and adopted ever since.

He could show differences between a 1940 USA dye and 1940 German dye. The USA was also a technological leader in dye manufacture in the first half of the 20th Century. However, by the 1960's the USA had adopted what the Germans had worked out that they had not, and combined it with their dye production. Thus he probably could not show much if any difference between an 1940 German dye and a 1960 USA dye or even a 1960 UK dye.

1940 German dyes contained what was to become the norm.

Then again, if they were made in another part of the Reich, may there are differences ? However, did the SS supply dye technology to those companies producing for them ? After all the SS owned shares in, or fully owned some dye companies in the Third Reich,

Chris

This is certainly a start...I would think the fabric,dye,elastic etc should be tested and if anything in their composition can be proven beyond a doubt to be post war,then we have the answer=fake.






Glenn

[NickG]

The pattern is wrong so yes.

Pattern is not entirely wrong...it's just been extended (added area) because of the rollers...(size issue) as DP showed us earlier! (and reposted)
and just like the period Norwegian parkas...they also needed to compensate by stretching the design... compensation because of the equipment used...
So the pattern on the Norwegian parkas would also be wrong? = proven war time...and different in scale!
Pretty elaborate for something "faked" from the 1970's...It is not entirely a fantasy (fake) camo design...
FOR COMPARISON PURPOSES with the pink, WHAT DID BONAFIDE REPRO PARKA'S FROM THE 1970'S LOOK LIKE I WONDER? Any older reenactors here to chime in?