"Pink" smock or not?

[NickG]

and the pocket detail of the foreign manufactured Norwegian made W-SS issued period parka...
also made under as Owen puts it "non-stressed" conditions (workers receiving a pay check) 100% real and 100% outside of the KL(camp) system...
Proof that it did happen...is my point! Stitching in a color other than black and straight as an arrow....not sloppy but still real!
Note sleeve with double needle stitching...

I realize it is an "apples to pears" comparison but if both are foreign contracted period garments, it could still be a possibility...
Again it remains a mystery to me the origin of the Birch/Pink smocks! Floch fire saled these, remember that!
These smocks came to Austria in a batch of parts well built, as contraband, from a frontier with the communist bloc...after a considerable investment to enable a printing plant of cloth, get materials pre 1945, buttons, elastic, dyes, threads, old sewing machines, etc...after having carried out all the work of cut, sew by hand, Assemble, etc...After the process of aging parts artificially, rodents and moth...after adding fraudulent stamps in the pockets, and at the same time remove, deface some, that no one is going to understand or accept if not until decades after...after washing and pass them as contraband through a border of the Cold war to the risk of arrest and criminal prosecution...for at the end of the road to fire sell them with loss or little profit of maybe $50 per smock...???

and as pointed out Heer sumpftarn pull over smocks with RBNr's (so contracted by regular industry, not KZ, non stress) also made with perfection and Norwegian ones with pattern modifications because of the rollers used....and not sloppy...
It happened with camo clothing depending on source...KL or non KL (camp)

It is all very interesting what this thread has revealed...both sides...
So is it all black and white? per Owen (camp made/Texled and therefor sloppy or well made and fake?) or is there still a possibility of gray?
So well made and real!
(foreign contracted like the Norway Parka?)
Been an interesting read with various (and opposing) viewpoints thus far!

[NZMark]

...while my offer still stands guys - I'll take a Birch smock for $500. I owned one 15 odd years ago, and like NCO regret selling it (paid the deposit on my home, so.... I still have threads on a card from this smock for future comparison...)
Mark

[Killerbee]

Excellent posts Owen.

Ditto that... thanks for that education Owen... and stop holding back...

Great thread guys from both sides of the fence. I'm learning alot.

Ok, enough of me interrupting, please continue !

Jim

[RobertE]

Myself and Rolen have both been at the tip of the spear for many many years and have met and talked LONG before the instant Internet arm chair expert virus gripped the world.
We have had many talks regarding all aspects of Pullover manufacturing with many many original garments layed out before us.

All the points gone over on this thread have been hashed out many times.
We both come from a manufacturing background and are stitch geeks.

Between us we have seen more pullovers than most and 99.9 % of the time are in complete agreement about process.

Process.

Lets discuss SS Manufacturing process.

I am NOT talking about ANY other SS item here only SS Cammo manufacturing the M-42 type garment.

90% of the 50 plus jackets examined sewn with black thread.
10% Field grey.
When I first noticed this I was surprised.
Black thread ?
Why it made NO sense but that was how they were done.
It was a minor joy to find one with a different tone...it really was.

Sewing single needle 90% of the time.
This type of seeing usually preformed in a VERY Semi skilled level.
Shoddy workman ship all over.
Bad lines.
Wobbly sewing.
Machine not set correctly.
Stop start work, meaning stitch per inch varies dramatically resulting in laughable finished product.
Button holes rough.
Some manufactures have actually better holes.
Eyelets vary between machine made and hand made.
Buttons can be pebbled matching with fall side actually painted tan to zink shiny type.
Hand sewn.
97% of the time EVERY pullover has Different segments making up the finished garment.
Body 1 pattern
Cuffs different pattern
Placket another pattern.
Pockets another pattern.
Cammo loops placed fall side on summer side Etc.
Hb pockets come in 2 types.
HB Fieldgrey its an SS grade of cloth so SS once you see it you never forget it.
Tan cotton type, this is only in 10% of jackets
Each Jacket has its own personality.
They are Cottage industry made.

The size of an original SS pullover is odd.
I have seen 3 to the best of my findings.
XXX Large which is most common.
XX Large in certain 3-4 items
Herring bone print which is traditionally smaller.

The picture emerges of a garment that is like a classic VW bug with different finders to a different hood and a weird door all salvaged from the wreckers yard....
We have all seen it on the road, so you get the picture.

Of course all SS Garments are KZ made.

An original SS cammo pullover it a VERY weird beast that is both rough and finished at the same time.
Its NOT well made and has a VERY peculiar aura to it.
It a forced labor manufactured item that the machine operator had a daily quota that had a KAPO standing over the line wanting more more more to provide the master with his product.
Its probable one of the saddest garments made during WW2 or even in history.

The Pinks on the other hand do not hold a candle to an original.

The sewing is methodical using many different contrived colored threads.
The thread is in places emerald green like the tacking by the cuffs.
The brown thread on the brown side is contrived.
The black elastic is sewn in with brown thread.
The weird bar tacks are just that .
Weird.
Sewing method on all I have examined is identical.
Double needle.
Modern factory.
Slow.
Sewers getting a pay cheque.
Good quality control.
Contrived multi color thread thats NOT German.

Pocket bag has a HB thats NOT SS WW2.
Pocket eyelets oh so nice.


Garment made from all matching pattern.
Loops made from matching pattern.
Whats odd is my 1st example had Korean reversible cammo in the button squares securing the buttons.
Mis matched recycled buttons.

All Pinks made identical which is not like any SS M-42 jacket.

They are just wrong for the time frame.
They are a good attempt but NOT GERMAN KZ made in WW2.

Now are they another Armys garment ?
From a different ERA ?
Thats a whole other chapter of the story.

owen

An excellent post, most of which I agree with.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Anyone want to see nice original ss Cammo on film

My favorite long tracking shot - split in the middle

You tube
Kanal

Pullovers and dot with caps
Sublime

Owen

[NickG]

It is interesting Owen that smocks are 90% black thread and 10% field gray thread and single stitch more the norm than double needle stitch...

This in light of the fact that helmet covers are the other way around (here Horsetrainers sublime find)
Here Horsetrainers SS helmet cover find with rodent damage (just like the Pink/Birch smocks... ) and field gray thread used in areas...

Did helmet covers exist also with black thread? Just wondering! These would have come from the same source right? Texled Ravensbruck?

and compared with a "Pink" (photos from Bob H)
It is a complicated subject matter for sure!

[90th Light]

Anyone want to see nice original ss Cammo on film

My favorite long tracking shot - split in the middle

You tube
Kanal

Pullovers and dot with caps
Sublime

Owen

Is it possible to give us some click on links to these Owen ?

and as has ready been stated by others, much appreciated.

I can help but wonder if more might start collecting SS camo with threads like this

"No publicity is bad publicity",

Chris

[nutmeg]

Frankly, if someone in Europe wanted to do fakes there would be a lot more profitable and easier things to make then these. SS tunics for one . There were a lot of stripped tunics coming over in the late 70s and the dealers here were decking them out with a mix of real and repro insignia. One guy near Philadelphia had quite the import business and workshop going.

[nutmeg]

Looks like some rat chewing going on there. How could they be trained to do that anyway?

[phild]

There are many interesting details in NickG's post above.

1. Notice on the HorseTrainer Helmet covers that the thread used to sew the loops on is clearly different than the thread used to make the actual loops. This characteristic to what is sometimes (not always) found in the Birch smocks with the different thread used for the cuff tacking and pocket flap construction and other areas of tacking. This all just shows that different stations were used in a work process. It is clear that thread was loaded into machines frequently....daily or maybe even more often......sometimes different color thread was loaded for what reason or no reason....this is as I would expect.

2. Notice that Nick shows the two known variations of the Birch smock camo loops. One has the center seam, more narrow loops and gray thread sewing.
The other is with the heavier green thread, wider loops and no center seam. We have seen this in a number of posted and personally viewed examples.

I do not want to read too much into this, however I think that the loop variation is meaningful and shows either two batches of these were made or maybe that they were made in a couple of different factories. I don't think that this is "another attempt to fool collectors by changing them up with known accepted variations" as some will claim.......collectors nor fakers were anywhere near that "smart" in 1980.

3. We have started having some good discussion about the sewing of both these and German made SS smocks in general. This is a subject that I too have spent a lot time with in my collecting of German cloth. SS camp made items of every type (not just smocks) were on the crude side and some more than others. On the other hand items made outside of that "system" we generally very well sewn. Our question is whether smocks were made outside of the camp workshops.
If you look at the all of the examples that NickG posted (smocks and helmet covers) you will notice (IMO) a LOT of similarities in sewing. These are well sewn, but ARE NOT of commercial standards by a long stretch.
UNLIKE the dot camo wrap fakes in another thread and also appearing in the 1980s.....the dot wraps were NOT sewn in fashion representative of German WWII uniform sewing (not to include SS KZ manufacturing characteristics) and are sewn more to a commercial standard......this is a big factor that I keyed in on when I bought my smock.

Until the 1990s.....really with the HSC fakes, I never saw German fake uniforms begin to capture the sewing techniques of true WWII German manufacture.....IMO the Birch smocks do in fact exhibit this characteristic Very very much.

[cbuehler]

I have othen mentioned the terrible quality of later war TR garments, particularly smocks, and what Owen says is at the heart of the matter.
Fakers still have not been able to turn out items that are as poorly made as originals, although they may be starting to get the idea.

CB

[NickG]

Why did the fakers decide to use different color thread on these pinks??? if they are (very early) fakes? The hobby was not that sophisticated in the 1980's to think that it would be a sign of authenticity....Owen calls it contrived ...done to fool...

To me it is an indicator of these being made/assembled at various work stations...
so in an industrial setting. Pocket flaps made at one station, attached at another...
camo loops assembled and later added...in stages...Too complicated this multiple stage assembly which means a work force... which means costly...

I do agree it is not sloppy work...not KL quality of forced labor rushing production through...but is that an automatic red flag? Too nice to be real?

[NickG]

more examples

[NickG]

Now a typical modern Chinese repro...all assembled ENTIRELY with the same thread...(Field Gray thread)
and ATF's M42 also same thread used in entire assembly...which is the norm on these... (Brown thread), keeping it simple!

and these would all be exactly the same, same producer, same characteristics...(an ATF run or a China run, no variances within the batch)

The pinkies on the other hand differ within the same batch..note smaller and wider camo loops (post 2061) and varying thread colors...
not typical for a single run "lets make a buck" hoard of reproduced smocks from the same "faker" source...
I am still puzzled and I agree with Phil that the loop variations on the various pinks is significant...or also contrived to fool? Why?

[phild]

I have othen mentioned the terrible quality of later war TR garments, particularly smocks, and what Owen says is at the heart of the matter.
Fakers still have not been able to turn out items that are as poorly made as originals, although they may be starting to get the idea.

CB

I can only say read my post on this above.

I do not think that the Birch smocks are particularly late war, but even so, as many on both sides of this debate have stated, the sewing quality was much more a factor of where the item was made then when it was made.

How anyone could look at the close up photos that NickG posted above of the camo loops from two variations of Birch smocks and say that this sewing is of a commercial technique is beyond my understanding. We can come back and say this is yet again another of the dozens of ruses employed by the fakers to throw us off in 1980 or earlier, but I just don't believe that at this point.

There have been comments about those who believe these are originals should be "open minded", well I think that I am. I would counter that "open minds" should also apply to the other side of the debate.

Where we are with this is as follows:

Some believe that these are fake due to differences with the accepted German smocks. They also have to believe that in late 1970s a reproduction venture of this scale, complexity and attention to minute detail could have been pulled off.

Others believe that that they are originals (but not KZ German produced) due to the correctness of details (specifications, not sewing characteristics or variation in materials) to the German smocks and genuine age characteristics and do not believe that everything could have been pulled off in the late 70s to make a copy of this complexity and on this scale....many, many hundreds minimal, without tipping their hand and using some detectable post war materials or other sign to give these away.

The stamps further complicate the matter and right now are taken differently by both sides as well. I will say that I have put much thought into the question of if these stamps could (or were) have been planted as part of a very complex ruse to legitimize these when they were introduced. I can not see it.......we all can talk ourselves into anything or out of anything...so my search for information on these will continue.