"Pink" smock or not?

[NickG]

Two more images borrowed from ATF's site...stonemint unissued German war time text book smocks detail shots!
Can we see the same close ups in these areas on the Pink-Birch smocks, flaps, button slits close up)
to see how much different they really are!

Note: DARK CHOCOLATE THREAD or BLACK? Button hole in BLACK!

[NickG]

Here a mixed HBT-Duck (combined materials) smock...different color thread was used... so much for a standard....????
OFF WHITE THREAD and button hole in FIELD GRAY THREAD...
(again I am not an expert though!!! so forgive me...just trying to understand this so-called "standard" as deviations are explained as a problem...!!!)
I see deviations...thread colors varying...Pocket liners with grayish HBT as well as field gray (green) HBT seen in original examples....Owen?

(image credits: ATF site)

[NickG]

Here a mixed HBT-Duck (combined materials) smock...different color thread was used... so much for a standard....????
OFF WHITE THREAD and button hole in FIELD GRAY THREAD...
(again I am not an expert though!!! so forgive me...just trying to understand this so-called "standard" as deviations are explained as a problem...!!!)
I see deviations...thread colors varying...Pocket liners with grayish HBT as well as field gray (green) HBT seen in original examples....Owen?

(image credits: ATF site)

They (ATF) explain this:
Production

After much research, my hypothesis is that the majority of SS Smocks were made by one company. Texled. How do I make such a ludicrous claim? Simple math. An interview with several former inmates, published by the Brandenburgishe Landeszentral fur politische Bildung, reveals that the daily quota of Tarnjacken at Texled was approximately 3,000. By the end of the War, it was nearly 5,000. The Waffen SS had roughly 1 million troops over the course of the War- only the frontline combat troops received smocks. Even at the early War rate of 3,000 per day, Texled could have supplied every member of the Waffen SS with a smock in less than a year. In reality, I suspect less than 500,000 were made, putting this number easily within the capabilities of the firm. SS smocks exhibit a consistency in construction, rarely seen in other garments- sewing machine type, thread color, and pattern. It is my opinion that most, if not all, were made by this company.


Same thread color??? One factory? What if it gets bombed....all eggs in 1 basket? Their pictures prove otherwise....variations...

[nutmeg]

Birch smock

[NickG]

I notice no "bar tack"...different key hole button slit construction... (original example has it stitched on crooked-off center...see below image)

[NickG]

Now Shea's original again...lacks bar tag!!! Not a standard...???? Owen??? or did it deteriorate (unravel?) fall off???
Production short cut and skipped in the process?

[nutmeg]

On my planetree it's all done in the black or dark brown thread except the pocket button holes which are in light blue gray or light blue thread.

[NickG]

On my planetree it's all done in the black or dark brown thread except the pocket button holes which are in light blue gray or light blue thread.

Which indicates done at different work stations by various people as the assembly progressed...
The thread colors and button holes on known original are not exactly uniform either...Confusing to me...

[nutmeg]

I can't imagine in the latter part of the war thread colors were a huge issue on camouflage clothing . They probably had standard preferred but other colors would do as well if available or a good deal was to be had.

[kammo man]

Like I said before .

Real SS Pullovers are made from Black of a Very dark Field grey thread.

The Pink is made from a Non German colored thread.

Real Pullovers are made VERY roughly.

Pinks in a different relaxed setting.


The pullovers that Rolen shows excbit a stress manufacturing process.


I owned a sewing factory for many years with 30 employees and know the difference of sewing techniques.
My first job in the industry was a quality controller progressing to a pattern maker.
What amazed me when I first began collection SS cammo items in the 1980s is how bad they are actually manufactured.

The Pinks are really well made.
Its a major red flag to begin with.
The bar tacking at the cuffs in a different color is weird.
The many different green and brown threads seen on items is a joke.

owen

[NickG]

Like I said before .

Real SS Pullovers are made from Black of a Very dark Field grey thread.

The Pink is made from a Non German colored thread.

Real Pullovers are made VERY roughly.

Pinks in a different relaxed setting.
The pullovers that Rolen shows excbit a stress manufacturing process.

The Pinks are really well made.
Its a major red flag to begin with.
The bar tacking at the cuffs in a different color is weird.
The many different green and brown threads seen on items is a joke.

owen

Makes sense Owen, so hastily produced, so sloppier in appearance...lacking bar tacks on some...etc...
and Pinks lack those flaws! Too perfect!

What do you think about Rolen's comments that he thinks these ALL came out of one single plant?

"Gesellschaft für Textil- und Lederverwertung GmbH" (Texled) in KZ Ravensbrück.
According to the web their peek in production in 1 month was achieved in September 1942, manufacturing 5000 uniforms.
and it was in the years AFTER that when the E-SS really expanded, so the need even bigger!

Do you think they had the capacity to make every smock ever used? (the monopoly in production)...
5000 tunics in 1 month is not even enough for 1 Division and soldiers were issued 2 uniforms...Smocks must have come from various manufacturing facilities
in the Reich or even elsewhere I feel...(just like woolen combat uniforms would...)
I do realize smocks stayed with the unit, not with the soldier and were technically "on loan" to the individual for a certain operation, to be returned...
Also I read that a smock combat conditions life cycle was calculated at 6 months only...(on average)

[Glenn McInnes]

A member here posted the following comments years ago and I think they belong in this thread..These are some of the best comments that I have ever read yet on these Forums.


There is a difference between opinion and knowledge.

No one is born with knowledge. Anyone with an open, academic mind can acquire it about any subject, with the application of time and study. Anyone on this forum can become an expert on the Safavid dynasty of ancient Persia, or the music of Mozart, for example.

It is one thing to say, "I like the music of Mozart, so I listen to it," and another thing altogether to be an academic expert on the music of Mozart by spending a lifetime studying the compositions and so on.

You can collect Playboy magazines without knowledge. All you need is opinion. Because they are not reproduced with intent to defraud, you can simply buy them, and enjoy them on the basis of opinion ("This issue is hotter than that issue, so I'm going to read this one.")

But originalilty is not based on OPINION. It is based on Knowledge. Scientifically, academically derived, acquired knowledge. One man's vote is not the same as another, when one is based on opinion and one is based on knowledge. Do you think, when a collector buys a Picasso painting, or a Chippendale chair, that he posts it on a forum to get opinions on originality???? Of course not. He consults an accredited expert. But that's not how many of you are collecting. You're going by a concensus of OPINION, not the application of knowledge.

Now, you could cut a square from it, and send it to a textile forensics labratory, like that of Nancy Boomhauer, and she could put it under a microscope and tell you what genus of cotton plant the fibers are from, and what country it was grown in, and within a year or two, what year it was grown, based on molecular decay. She could tell you what country produced the textile dyes, and often which company, and how old they are based on the chemical ingredients, and so on. Science. Not radio talk-show opinions, science.

I urge you to acquire the knowledge, and collect based on scientific knowledge, and not just buy things you like and then authenticate by getting your buddies to come on line and say they like it, too. And learn to recognize the difference. The long-term fate of the hobby depends on it.






Glenn

[nutmeg]

There is no bar tacking on my birch smock. The Germans never used green gray thread?

Like I said before .

Real SS Pullovers are made from Black of a Very dark Field grey thread.

The Pink is made from a Non German colored thread.

Real Pullovers are made VERY roughly.

Pinks in a different relaxed setting.


The pullovers that Rolen shows excbit a stress manufacturing process.


I owned a sewing factory for many years with 30 employees and know the difference of sewing techniques.
My first job in the industry was a quality controller progressing to a pattern maker.
What amazed me when I first began collection SS cammo items in the 1980s is how bad they are actually manufactured.

The Pinks are really well made.
Its a major red flag to begin with.
The bar tacking at the cuffs in a different color is weird.
The many different green and brown threads seen on items is a joke.

owen

[phild]

A member here posted the following comments years ago and I think they belong in this thread..These are some of the best comments that I have ever read yet on these Forums.


There is a difference between opinion and knowledge.

No one is born with knowledge. Anyone with an open, academic mind can acquire it about any subject, with the application of time and study. Anyone on this forum can become an expert on the Safavid dynasty of ancient Persia, or the music of Mozart, for example.

It is one thing to say, "I like the music of Mozart, so I listen to it," and another thing altogether to be an academic expert on the music of Mozart by spending a lifetime studying the compositions and so on.

You can collect Playboy magazines without knowledge. All you need is opinion. Because they are not reproduced with intent to defraud, you can simply buy them, and enjoy them on the basis of opinion ("This issue is hotter than that issue, so I'm going to read this one.")

But originalilty is not based on OPINION. It is based on Knowledge. Scientifically, academically derived, acquired knowledge. One man's vote is not the same as another, when one is based on opinion and one is based on knowledge. Do you think, when a collector buys a Picasso painting, or a Chippendale chair, that he posts it on a forum to get opinions on originality???? Of course not. He consults an accredited expert. But that's not how many of you are collecting. You're going by a concensus of OPINION, not the application of knowledge.

Now, you could cut a square from it, and send it to a textile forensics labratory, like that of Nancy Boomhauer, and she could put it under a microscope and tell you what genus of cotton plant the fibers are from, and what country it was grown in, and within a year or two, what year it was grown, based on molecular decay. She could tell you what country produced the textile dyes, and often which company, and how old they are based on the chemical ingredients, and so on. Science. Not radio talk-show opinions, science.

I urge you to acquire the knowledge, and collect based on scientific knowledge, and not just buy things you like and then authenticate by getting your buddies to come on line and say they like it, too. And learn to recognize the difference. The long-term fate of the hobby depends on it.






Glenn

I could not agree more with that philosophy. I would say that while I have not achieved that ability in every respect, I have sought it. I would add that maybe 5 years into collecting back in the early or mid 1970s I decided that I would not collect anything that I had to ask for multiple opinions on whether is was good or bad. I have violated my rule a few times, but if there is one thing in collecting that I have been right about it was adopting that rule in spirit and goal.

[phild]

Like I said before .

Real SS Pullovers are made from Black of a Very dark Field grey thread.

The Pink is made from a Non German colored thread.

Real Pullovers are made VERY roughly.

Pinks in a different relaxed setting.


The pullovers that Rolen shows excbit a stress manufacturing process.


I owned a sewing factory for many years with 30 employees and know the difference of sewing techniques.
My first job in the industry was a quality controller progressing to a pattern maker.
What amazed me when I first began collection SS cammo items in the 1980s is how bad they are actually manufactured.

The Pinks are really well made.
Its a major red flag to begin with.
The bar tacking at the cuffs in a different color is weird.
The many different green and brown threads seen on items is a joke.

owen

Owen,

In the spirit of Christmas I can say that you submitted a post in which I agree with most all of it! Maybe I will see some pigs flying around when I get up in the morning!

I do take exception to your last line and continued use of the term "pinks" for a garment with no pink in it.....but hey I'm a glass half full kind of person.

As for the last line- I have seen a couple these smocks with some brown thread in them....I think mainly in the thread use to sew on the buttons , but may elsewhere as well.
I can tell anyone that most of these are sewn almost entirely of a medium to lighter gray thread....of the same size and general appearance as can found in a lot of German uniforms....which varied greatly. Some of these are in fact made mostly from the green thread and mine has the pocket flaps only constructed with it (and sewn on with the gray thread).

There is for me no question that these smocks show different quality characteristics than accepted SS smocks. On the other hand they are pretty consistent in that regard to Heer Marsh pattern smocks....and I have handled and owned a number of those.....some differences in sewing to be sure but of similar quality.

The issue comes back to this: If one believes that all SS smocks were made only by the sources of the 'accepted" variations they will reject the Birch smocks as they will not stand a 1:1 comparison with any known variation of one of those smocks......just as many of those variations will not pass a 1:1 with some other accepted variations due to single needle vs double needle sewing, hbt vs duck, hand sewn eyelets vs machine sewn eyelets and selvage ended cuffs vs hemmed cuffs and many many more detail differences among accepted originals, agreed? Is there anything that I have written to this point that is factually incorrect (other than pigs may be flying )?

The burden of proof will probably come down to a clear photo of one of these being worn....which is possible but a tall order or maybe some solid documentation of the origin of the this lot....less of a tall order but not easy to do. A good test of the dyes could tell us if anything detected was post 45, realizing that if it was not that would not convince some, but it would rule them out if it proved otherwise.

I do appreciate your contribution above and find it pretty much on target.