"Pink" smock or not?

[kammo man]

Very nice bitter post Robert.


You could also learn to have a sense of humor.

[RobertE]

Below is an English translation of what a collector from Minsk had to say about these stamps on the pink smocks. He was born in Misk and lived all his life there. He is also a long-term german uniforms collector who has seen more than a few garments from Minsk movie studio. His original Russian text is shown in the screenshot below (from Russian WW2 forum, December 13, 2015)

"There is "Minsk-film" written (in the stamp). But the such name is some sort of nonsense. There was no such thing. There was only "Belasrusfilm" or "filmstudio Belasrusfilm" storage or wardrobe department inventory number, et cetera. The stamp "Minsk-film" is somebody's fantasy. In reality, I have never encountered anything like this.
Take my native resident word for it..
That's the fact. For example, below is shown the old photo from Belarusfilm storage facility. Quality of the picture is not that good, nevertheless it is from Belarusfilm for sure.
Stamps of Belarusfilm storage facilities of the period from 1946 to 1990 may vary but there was never been "Minsk-film" in them and that's for sure! In every instance, in every stamp and at any place (storage, wardrobe department, etc.) where the word "-film" is used as an extension-word, it is always/only in the word "Belarusfilm".
The word "Minsk" can certainly be encountered in the stamps of Belarusfilm but only in the address line of the company and always separately from the "Belarusfilm" company name - exactly and solely this way and in no other way!
I would like to add that I have never seen small colored stamps like red-circle and green-triangle stamps before and in my opinion they are fantasy too. Usually the stamp were simple black, gray, rightangled stamps with text, or just numbers: indexes w/ dashes, inventory numbers, or just some numbers written simply by hand"

Thanks DP. Was this collector active in film industry material 1940-1980?

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

Very nice bitter post Robert.

You could also learn to have a sense of humor.

Not bitter in the least, Owen, just not entertained by your antics. I don't pay my membership to be entertained by the likes of you, just informed. I am interested in having a discussion with serious collectors about an item under debate. Not a matter of life and death, just good rational discussion.

There are other forums and outlets for having fun and playing games, and I think you energy would be better spent there.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Not bitter in the least, Owen, just not entertained by your antics. I don't pay my membership to be entertained by the likes of you, just informed. I am interested in having a discussion with serious collectors about an item under debate. Not a matter of life and death, just good rational discussion.

There are other forums and outlets for having fun and playing games, and I think you energy would be better spent there.

s/f Robert

I stay on this thread to be amused by you.
You make me smile every morning over my tea and toast.

[kammo man]

Can anyone PM me if this is the supposed Triangular Stamp that is present in some of your inside Pockets, or that you have seen this stamp in the smocks or also importantly on other SS Items. If not, what triangle stamp you have in fact seen at all!

I have no idea if these pants are good i am just interested in the stamp as it is a triangle.

Regards,

Pete

P ,

What did you do in the movie I forget.

Where did the dot pants come from ?
Are they yours ?

o

[kammo man]

Not prepared to comment about SS camo but when it comes to DAK or tropical then he has or has sold some superb original items. Like all things however you have to know your stuff or do your homework,

Chris

Good to know you have now learned about SS cammo now.

[nutmeg]

Just because someone hasn't seen a particular inventory stamp doesn't mean it didn't exist. Could be everything with that mark was long out out Minsk by the 1950s- 1960s particularly if it was transferred to a Czech film company . Who knows exactly what that mark refers to , storage unit, costume dept , warehouse?

The other points is why stamp these marks in perfectly original items which at the time would have made them less desirable ? Why not mark all of the Birch smocks with the markings instead of some. Why are some washed, damaged or not washed?

I was wondering why get rid of these since the Soviets were making tons of war films . I've seen lots of these early films but offhand don't recall seeing the Germans in any kind camo , they seem to prefer the regular tunics which makes them more readily identifiable as Nazis. I have a few late 40s films on disc , I 'll look them over again.

[salt*creek]

I always thought pinks were bad because of the color but colors varied as explained here and in another thread Bob.H posted this comparison image about 9 years ago...
(pink draped over a real smock with real drawstrings...The pink HBT pocket bags exposed...he is apparenty still sitting on the fence...). Blatant fake? Keep digging!

The drawstring is not the original one that would have come with it and I have real doubts on the pullover as well. It's not possible to tell from this photo. Real or made from real fabric, the oak material is very faded.

[nutmeg]

I stay on this thread to be amused by you.
You make me smile every morning over my tea and toast.

So with everything there is to do in LA this is your prime source of amusement?

[Palmenmuster]

The drawstring is not the original one that would have come with it and I have real doubts on the pullover as well. It's not possible to tell from this photo. Real or made from real fabric, the oak material is very faded.

Salt, it doesn't matter if a smock have an original drawstring or not, an original drawstring is only a bonus.
Tom

[kammo man]

Simple, the thread is long because it has twists and turns, hence its long,...new facts emerge, like readable stamps, like original items showing with the same stamps...facts not known when this thread was originally started!
It actually lessens the "firm fake" view point, it opens up possibilities for other avenues...other possibilities, better techniques, fabric analysis...worthy of a discussion...and yes 2 camps,
2 viewpoints...but lets get the movie and Russian MoD experts involved like the Belarus Movie Archive institution and Lenfilm staff and have the stamps analyzed further like DP is doing!

On that note looking at these movie stamp examples,why didn't a faker use a real company stamp if its bogus? Statni fake stamps exist...Its puzzling to me...or were these stolen inventories and a make-belief film company stamp was added to cover their tracks? In other words stolen from USSR MoD? The real DOT pants have only the other stamps...
Have those stamps been investigated? Still odd that all stamps appear in a real smock that is self authenticating...has no need for stamps...or planted to legitimize the pinkies?
I doubt that!

I always thought pinks were bad because of the color but colors varied as explained here and in another thread Bob.H posted this comparison image about 9 years ago...
(pink draped over a real smock with real drawstrings...The pink HBT pocket bags exposed...he is apparenty still sitting on the fence...). Blatant fake? Keep digging!

Looks like 2 Pinks to me.

[NickG]

Looks like 2 Pinks to me.

Yeah Owen to me as well...Appear to be twins...This is what Bob wrote in that other thread...(many years ago)
_____________________________________________

The smock, in the photo, was purchased from Johannes Floch, from a pile of smocks he bought in Czechoslovakia. I thought it was a pink smock, but Robert Noss said it was just a common original. There were many smocks on Johan's table, all wrinkled and in various conditions, from storage.
I also have a pink smock, which I bought on the E-Stand. Both have the same herringbone twill pocets.
Either way, I will keep them both.

Bob Hritz

______________________________________

Maybe he can chime in? I guess Floch had piles of various ones, mint pinks, faded washed out Pinks and a sprinkling of textbook ones?
(which went for more money no doubt)

He also wrote this:

Please check on the 2 smocks I posted. The smock, on the torso, was purchased from Johannes Floch, from a pile he had. I had sent Robert Noss many photos and measurements. Robert replied, both in private correspondance, and on the GD.com Forum that this was not a pink smock, but an original Oak Leaf pattern. I posted the 2nd smock, AKA pink, on top of the alledged original. The colors are so close it is most difficult for me to see a dfference. I only have 5 smocks, to include the newly E-Stand purchased pink type.
Best regards,
Bob

____________________________________

The page is here: (link)

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...k+smock&page=6



.

[juvatwad]

If this was any other item in any other thread the first thing people say is don't believe the tale know your stuff.The more this goes on and the longer the tale about these marking the more fake this jacket becomes in my opinion.

I've followed this thread simply to see how things play out on an item that one side really believes is real and the other doesn't. In general, I believe the more ad hoc assumptions one has to make to prove your point, the worse off you are. There are a lot of ad hoc assumptions here.

[Disco Partisan]

IF it was a fantasy movie company, and thus a fake stamp (which is what you are trying to imply? Correct?)

Then answer these for us, please:

- Why not stamp ALL of the smocks with the stamps? Lets face it it would be pretty easy to do if you were a faker with a stamp sitting there ready to go?

to answer your question may I ask you the same counterquestion: Why aren't they ALL stamped? lets face it, if they all came from the same movie-studio, then they would have been all stamped. Right?

- The stamp devalued items (people tried to avoid the stamped smocks) - good business move that one?

the stamps devalue original items a bit but at the same time the same stamps significantly increase value of fakes because they make them look like original.

- Why stamp the other original pieces - again, to devalue? ?

that's a trick. Imagine someone offers you hundred of questionable, never-seen-before pink smocks with no story attached to them. He tells you they are original from Russian movie company. How much would you trust him? Not much
Now imagine smocks have stamps and he shows you a few original items with the same stamp and tells you they were found together at the same place - Russian movie studio. Wholly cow ! What a find!

- Why deface/cut/wash them out, IF (according to you) they've just been added to 'enhance' them somehow? ?

to make them look older and the movie-story more believable. It is a common thing to see defaced markings on original garments from movie companies. I guess they just had no other choices but to wash them.. .at least to put some age/use on them. Just imagine how would these smocks look to anyone had they be all crispy mint. It would be written on their faces: "Made last week"

Lastly, why does it even have to be the name of a movie company? Why not a supplier's warehouse etc?? We come back round to that point again where trying to decipher these stamps isn't really totally necessary - answer those fundamental questions above and it's pretty clear that whoever stamped them in the first place, the last thing on their minds was to deceive colloectors - rather just marking their inventory up. Simple as that. It really is!

yes, it was all to deceive buyers. Easy and simple and works flawlessly as we can see even decades later

[nutmeg]

to answer your question may I ask you the same counterquestion: Why aren't they ALL stamped? lets face it, if they all came from the same movie-studio, then they would have been all stamped. Right?



the stamps devalue original items a bit but at the same time the same stamps significantly increase value of fakes because they make them look like original.
that's a trick. Imagine someone offers you hundred of questionable, never-seen-before pink smocks with no story attached to them. He tells you they are original from Russian movie company. How much would you trust him? Not much
Now imagine smocks have stamps and he shows you a few original items with the same stamp and tells you they were found together at the same place - Russian movie studio. Wholly cow ! What a find!

When I bought hundreds of original items from Eaves and Brooks Van Horn Costume companies in New York City 1973-1976 only a portion of the uniforms had an Eaves or BVH marking , many had no markings and some had markings of previous costume companies like Christies or film companies or any combination of all . You would think because because these were indeed rentals to theater and films, everything would be marked because it had to be returned. But wasn't .

That's one theory but with the NYC costume company items I sold , those without the markings were preferred far more then those with. I recall when things started coming to the US with Russian film markings . They were not all that popular because there was a fear (no matter how good they looked) that they were either very good fakes or put togethers , etc. You have remember at that time before the internet knowledge was far more limited and usually confined to smaller circles. Also there were all sorts of unfounded rumors about these which made people very nervous. Not sure what an SS smock cost in 1980 but it was far far less then today. I doubt if the cost of making these would have justified the price at the time. Also at that time camouflage was not nearly as popular or collectible as it is today. The top items as I recall were were daggers, medals, hats , helmets and tunics. I recall SS cufftitles under $100.00 and there were lots around . In the late 70s I sold an SS DD camo helmet I bought from a local vet for around $450.00 which was 3 months rent for a NICE studio apartment .

You have to remember the time frame that these appear is nearly 35 years ago! Everything was different then . There was a lot more good material around then and it was flowing from vets who were in their 50s-60 years of age. When I ran newspaper ads I got calls right in my large town nearly every day . When I ran them in VFW magazine and veteran magazines I was getting 4-5 letters a day offering me things. Great things! If you wanted a smock most the German dealers had one on hand .