"Pink" smock or not?

[Patty D]

Anyone remember this post by Pete #810?
I find the date related at the end rather interesting in light of the stamped dates on the Birch smocks' pockets...
He has no personal interest in the authenticity of the "earth brown" (a/k/a "pink") SS smocks that first appeared on the market more than thirty years ago. He got one of these smocks, with what he recalls as an pinkish, earth-brown shade in the camo pattern, in 1981. As he recalls, it had the stamp "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ", or LENFILM (the film studio then in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg). When people started saying that these were believed to be copies, he traded it off. Some years later, he visited the costume department at Lenfilm and had the opportunity to ask the chief of the department if they had ever had any German camouflage smocks, and showed him a photo of one. The director recognized them and told him they had once had 50-60 such smocks, but they had been sold or transferred from the studio in the late 1970's when he first began to work there. (There was sharing between studios and, generally, the predecessor stamp was crossed through and a new stamp affixed.) He then asked if the studio had made these smocks. The director found his question very amusing and told him they had not. Several elderly staff members at Lenfilm recalled these smocks and told him that they had come from the Ministry of Defense. The director checked their accession records and told him that the studio had indeed received them from the MOD in 1947.
Mark

That's very interesting Mark, and as has been said it was originally stated way before we could put a date to any of these stamps... and yet it matches perfectly! 1947.

It would be ideal now if we could find one of these other studio stamped examples (LENFILM) to post pictures of up on here.

[90th Light]

The Reichskommissariat "Ostland" and German High Command eventually even made some concessions and allowed the Belarusian collaborators set up a puppet state. This semi-autonomous local government was founded in December 1943, and named the "Belarusian Central Council". They even had their own Home guard troops (BKA) for their local defense needs. The quasi-government organized universal military conscription among the young Belarusians with spectacular results. The Belarusian Home Defence Force (Bielaruskaja Krajevaja Abarona, BKA) was formed, with 28,000 soldiers ready for training, and add to that a few thousand members of the Belarusian Auxiliary Police battalions. The Belarusian Home Defence forces were eventually absorbed into 30. Waffen-Grenadier-division der SS-Russische No 2..
Other W-SS units with ties to Bellarus (which had a successful recruitment campaign), either stationed there or recruited from there:
-14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian)
-29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian)
30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian)
-30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Russian)
-36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS
and
indeed as Chris stated the Estonian SS was deployed in Belarus where it took up anti-partisan action in 1944. Chris mentioned this already.

So we have units raised there and/or stationed there, (so a need for smocks)
we have a part of occupied Soviet Union that actually had a reasonably successful collaboration campaign which lead to some autonomy even
and (German controlled ) industry for the war effort...
(but at the same time also a successful partisan campaign in the region (woods and swamps) which lead to the deployment of various Waffen SS units...also a need for gear...)

Very, very interesting Nick,

a clear "20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian)" connection with Belarus plus the other SS units in that area of the Reich. The majority of whom, all surrendered in the East. Any who did make it West were handed back to the Russians quite quickly in 1945, still wearing their German uniforms,

Chris

[Leroy]

Anyone remember this post by Pete #810?
I find the date related at the end rather interesting in light of the stamped dates on the Birch smocks' pockets...

Mark

Actually, that was my post # 420 (the same one in which I recounted my conversation with Floch) 3+ years ago.

[90th Light]

Add to that the fact that Belarus was very well known for its textile production...with mills etc...Was also mentioned earlier in this thread!
From the web:
The main material for textile goods of Belarusians were flax, sheep woolen cloth, hemp. Threads were died using natural dyes and later synthetic dyes the most characteristic to Belarus are white flax textiles with delicate ornamentation. Belarus was one of the top textile producers among all Soviet republics in terms of volume and historically, textiles and wood processing have constituted a large part of the Belarus industrial activity...

So as a theory or possible explanation these "Pink" Smocks were indeed locally made and therefor not entirely meeting the norms of native German production...deviating from the standard some what, as other posters already eluded to...so a reason why they are oddball....
(happened in Norway with parkas too! Foreign production to meet local demand, SS Polizei/ski-jager)
and these never made it West during the war so unknown...none captured...Only until smuggled into Austria via Czechoslovakia...did they become known...an unusual pattern... None of the Waffen SS units listed (which had ties with the Belarus area) surrendered in the West meaning these smocks (if issued) stayed in the East.

Again very interesting Nick,

so Belarus textile production is centered & based around "Flax", "Wool", "Hemp"

And what is a main component of the raw, rough, blended ersatz duck from which the "Birch" ("Pink") smocks made from ? Answer = Flax (Hemp?)

And Flax (Hemp?) is also main part of the blend that the HBT of the pockets is woven from.

Plus Belarus has its own natural and (later) synthetic dye industry/ manufacture.

Are the dots connecting and the ducks lining up in a row ?

Chris

[pete]

All i did was try to figure out the stamps and collect other possible examples, the member with the 1947 info from the film people is not from me!

Pete

[Felix]

Well besides Floch maybe another possible angle of investigation;

What about the brand new "Great Patriotic War Museum" in Minsk?
It opened a year ago and houses 3,000m2 of WW2 artifacts, over 8,000 exhibits, covering Barbarossa, occupation, Partisan movement and liberation of Belarus.

Their contact info here: (for those who speak the language)

http://www.belarus.by/en/travel/mili...r-museum-minsk

Some of the displays shown here: (11 images).
It looks impressive, in the same league as the IWM!

http://www.belarus.by/rel_image/4903

Perhaps they have artifacts with such stamps? Maybe the curator(s) will recognize these?

I will visit next year. I was in the old museum but really few German uniforms was shown. Saw a really nice SD jacket though. However this new museum reopened is supposed to be something extraordinary. I will see what I can find out. Stamps might as well be in Soviet uniforms.

Belarus system is very ridgid though... Not much hope, but perhaps a chat with museum staff and show some photos might be possible....

Cheers
//Felix

[kammo man]

Good to see the drum circle is still beating !

So lets have some fun today.



Whats the new names of Pink you guys just invented ?

There are so many....

In the last post my head got muddled with the names........

So many names

Good to see creativeness working.


Lets call it Cult pattern.

[NickG]

Good to see the drum circle is still beating !
So lets have some fun today.
Whats the new names of Pink you guys just invented ?
There are so many....
In the last post my head got muddled with the names........
So many names ....
Good to see creativeness working.
Lets call it Cult pattern.

You are funny Owen..."Cult" pattern. I like your sense of humor!
Well this is what it should NOT be called:

-NOT called "Pink" (wrong color description)
-NOT called "Berman & Nathan, London"...bogus UK source story...
-NOT called "Floch (made) fake"... (per Bob's recollection of conversation w/Floch)
-NOT "Theatrical Prop" , way too detailed for use as a prop (why even reversible? B/W movies?)

I like the name "Belarus Birch"?

or what about the name: "Byarozavik smock"

Byarozavik (бярозавік) is a Belarusian traditional drink made from birch sap which is harvested from birch trees once a year! I will drink to that!

[phild]

I know the following test was posted here maybe a year or more earlier and I think it was by Chris, but I also know that those who are bent on trashing tharen smocks ignore everything that counters their allegations. Here goes:
I spent some time actually comparing my smock to about 6 different shelter halves that ranged from German army WWII to post war US and 4 post war European models from CZ, Hungary and Austria. My test was putting them over an intense LED light and comparing how much light came thru and how it came thru. The result is that in every case about the same amount came through! It all looked to be very close in terms of density with the smocks being in about the middle of what was a pretty close range of density. All items were made of so-called duck. Some of these felt much thinner than the smocks in fact but were woven very tight.

I also want to say again for maybe the 50 time that I simply have never understood this entire direction of questions in saying that non of the materials used in these smocks or the print was not identical to German produced counterparts. My reasoning is simply that if these smocks were produced outside of Germany then based on EVERY other foreign produced uniform item that we now understand then non of the materials would or could be 100% identical to German produced counterparts. Identical German material has never to my knowledge been found in ANY accepted foreign made uniform including SS, why do some condemn these for sharing that characteristic?

[salt*creek]

I like the name Fake

[kammo man]

Nice salt !

So lets call them

Fake pattern.


Got a great ring to it.

[phild]

Nice salt !

So lets call them

Fake pattern.


Got a great ring to it.

Yet again more useful information we can really sink our teeth into.

[kammo man]

I know, its really useful.



And the Fake Pink pattern also comes with a COA.......

Will you issue it please.?

I want to show all who come to my house it so they can read the small print and be happy for me that I own one and a letter saying it was made in WW2 and went to a company in 1947 and then made its way to a dealer of old fakes etc.
If I have that paper telling me its real then I will believe its real.
Better still can you please put an app on my I phone with a link to this thread and all your posts telling the reader all about this fake Pink jacket ?

Please please please !

Please ......

[nutmeg]

My reasoning is simply that if these smocks were produced outside of Germany then based on EVERY other foreign produced uniform item that we now understand then non of the materials would or could be 100% identical to German produced counterparts. Identical German material has never to my knowledge been found in ANY accepted foreign made uniform including SS, why do some condemn these for sharing that characteristic?[/QUOTE]

Easy, because having proclaimed these as fake for SO long they feel they cannot back down( in spite of quickly mounting evidence they are good) without losing face or self perceived damage to their reputation. This is sad because they are very knowledgeable guys and don't realize true experts are willing to consider all points of view even if they don't agree without trying to shout down every bit of evidence that turns up regardless of what it is . What they can't realize is that should they change their minds or at least be somewhat more open minded , no one with think any the less of them. Should the evidence go the other way I would be the first to admit I was wrong and move on, no big deal. Every expert is wrong about something sometime , comes with the territory.

[nutmeg]

I like Ost Smock

You are funny Owen..."Cult" pattern. I like your sense of humor!
Well this is what it should NOT be called:

-NOT called "Pink" (wrong color description)
-NOT called "Berman & Nathan, London"...bogus UK source story...
-NOT called "Floch (made) fake"... (per Bob's recollection of conversation w/Floch)
-NOT "Theatrical Prop" , way too detailed for use as a prop (why even reversible? B/W movies?)

I like the name "Belarus Birch"?

or what about the name: "Byarozavik smock"

Byarozavik (бярозавік) is a Belarusian traditional drink made from birch sap which is harvested from birch trees once a year! I will drink to that!