"Pink" smock or not?

[nutmeg]

Hi Bob,

You knew Flock , do have any background on these smocks? I assume he's deceased so we can't ask him about the source of these or more evidence? I'd also be curious to know the exact time these surfaced.

]



Ownen,

Johannes Flock had nothing to do with fake tuxedo badges. Get your facts straight.

Bob Hritz

[NickG]

Thats right it was Winkler.
So many of these guys sell bad stuff its hard to keep all their names in the correct faker box.

Yeah be careful with Kai!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=speer+kai

Pinks (like minty tan helmets) are in a different category and usually sold as;
"make up your own mind" items...2 camps on these...still kind of up in the air... but good revelations in this thread so far!
Lets try to keep this thread open!!! (a prior one already got shut down!)

[Disco Partisan]

This entire entry is opinion. There is not a single fact presented in this response.

I recall when you were challenged to pick the "bad " hbt from a line-up of good close-ups, you couldn't. You didn't even venture a guess, and claimed the pictures were too bad to make a determination more recently.

Yet you can tell the smock is bad from even more distant, general photos.

There had been detailed, close-up analysis of the birch smocks, from colors to fabrics, and some decent research. Yet you have failed to produce a single bit of similarly details analysis.

I think you are out of tricks, and are resorting to constant repeats of "it's simple" and citing the fun of the game, as though the wise sage is mildly entertained.

If you have something of substance, not would be a good time to break it out.

s/f Robert

These smock have quite a few questions unanswered/red flags (unusual print, used buttons, no laces, no provenance, fake-seller, fantasy movie-company name, etc). For example, I have a very well made old fake ss camo uniform that has only one 1 issue (one single thread (used on only one button hole embroidery) did not pass the burn test) and That was enough for me to realize that it is fake. And how many red flags do you guys have here with pink smocks? And still trying to convince they are real. No, noway. Until each and every issue mentioned above is explained and supported by facts - they will remain fake. At least for me.

[Leroy]

What, please, is the "French" angle?

Nutmeg - Floch is very much alive and is to be seen at both the SOS and MAX shows (as well as others in Europe, too). I reported his comments on these smocks years ago in this thread and was very surprised that no one had bothered before to just walk up and talk to him about them.

[Felix]

What, please, is the "French" angle?

Nutmeg - Floch is very much alive and is to be seen at both the SOS and MAX shows (as well as others in Europe, too). I reported his comments on these smocks years ago in this thread and was very surprised that no one had bothered before to just walk up and talk to him about them.

Yes, its been mentioned in the past several times and Im quite surprised no one who knows him personally have asked him...

It must be done by someone who knows him...

Cheers
//Felix

[NZMark]

These smock have quite a few questions unanswered/red flags (unusual print, (answered) used buttons (answered) , no laces (answered) , no provenance (as with most militaria), fake-seller (answered) , fantasy movie-company name (at this stage still being researched but after a week way to early to discard), etc). For example, I have a very well made old fake ss camo uniform that has only one 1 issue (one single thread (used on only one button hole embroidery) did not pass the burn test) and That was enough for me to realize that it is fake. And how many red flags do you guys have here with pink smocks? And still trying to convince they are real. No, noway. Until each and every issue mentioned above is explained and supported by facts - they will remain fake. At least for me.

Sir, I would take the time to re-read the answers to your concerns so far.
Regards,
Mark
NZ

[Bob Hritz]

Hi Bob,

You knew Flock , do have any background on these smocks? I assume he's deceased so we can't ask him about the source of these or more evidence? I'd also be curious to know the exact time these surfaced.

I know Johannes very well. We have been friends for 50 years and I value his friendship very dearly. If my memory serves me, I recall he told me he found them in Czechoslovakia. I have two of them and wanted those that did not have all those 'weird' stamps on the pockets. Those with the stamps were sold for less, as were those that were damaged from rodent chews and urine damage. All had to be clean to get them into Austria. I do not know the method of cleaning, but will ask him in my letter.

Johan is alive and well and has been at every SOS and MAX Show for decades. He has tables and will gladly answer inqueries. I will write him and ask if he can provide details, as he does not use a computer.

As a personal aside, Johannes has, in my opinion, found more original material than any other human being. He was at it when he was a very young man and I wrote to him when I was a teen age collector. He also sold many replicas, and was always completely forthcoming about their lack of period authenticity and they were sold as replicas. The dealers who bought them and resold as original material should be ashamed of themselves. They are the villians, not Johan.

I would urge all to introduce yourself to Johan, at the upcoming SOS. I am sure the answers to your questions will be provided.

Bob Hritz

[Disco Partisan]

Prototype of "Minsk Studio of Popular Scientific and Chroniclal-documentary films" has been established in 1935 by name "Minsk studio newsreel" "Mинская студия кинохроники".
As I stated before, I am not a SS collector and don't have my personal opinion on pink smock, but I don't like, when the only part of fact pulling out to support or denied some theory. We have to look on the whole situation.
1. In 1935 "Minsk studio newsreel" has been established. They make a lot documentaries about the partisan movement in Belarus.
2. In January, 30 1958 ,The most popular Communist newspaper Izvestiya published interview with an editor of the Minsk Film Studio.
3. 1961 "Minsk Studio of Popular Scientific and Chroniclal-documentary films" has been established.
4. 1968 it was renamed to "Letopis" and merged to Belarusfilm.

So, in my point, there is very good availability to use something short on stamps, like "Минск-фильм".

Andrei, could you please provide any link on the net or any screenshot of the "Minsk studio newsreel" that (as you said) has been established in 1935?

I could not find any. Where did you get that info?

What was written in that newspaper / the way they called the movie studio(Minsk-film) was just a verbal slang by an author in fashion of major movie companies in SovieUnion like MosFilm (Moscow), LenFilm(Leningrd) etc. which were official names (stil are). "Minsk-film" has never been an official name, it was Belarusfilm (still is)

[nutmeg]

I know Johannes very well. We have been friends for 50 years and I value his friendship very dearly. If my memory serves me, I recall he told me he found them in Czechoslovakia. I have two of them and wanted those that did not have all those 'weird' stamps on the pockets. Those with the stamps were sold for less, as were those that were damaged from rodent chews and urine damage. All had to be clean to get them into Austria. I do not know the method of cleaning, but will ask him in my letter.

Johan is alive and well and has been at every SOS and MAX Show for decades. He has tables and will gladly answer inqueries. I will write him and ask if he can provide details, as he does not use a computer.

As a personal aside, Johannes has, in my opinion, found more original material than any other human being. He was at it when he was a very young man and I wrote to him when I was a teen age collector. He also sold many replicas, and was always completely forthcoming about their lack of period authenticity and they were sold as replicas. The dealers who bought them and resold as original material should be ashamed of themselves. They are the villians, not Johan.

I would urge all to introduce yourself to Johan, at the upcoming SOS. I am sure the answers to your questions will be provided.

Bob Hritz

Bob, Many thanks , this is really terrific. Could you ask maybe if he took snapshots of the bales as they came in , or any early other documentation he might have. This could truly important in clearing all this up. Unfortunately the rumor mills and off the cuff uniformed remarks spoil the reputations of many otherwise decent individuals.

[Bob Hritz]

I would like, also, to point out that I know Owen and consider him to be a friend. His expertise in vintage clothing has impressed me by the application to vintage military clothing. Owen has examined more original SS camo than I will ever see and it is a mistake to try to discredit his knowledge. He does work for Hollywood studios as a technical expert in uniforms being correctly used in films. Owen has an impressive resume.

However, on this issue of the smocks Johannes found, I must disagree with Owen. That is alright as it will not interfere with our friendship and I will continue to attempt to learn from his vast experience.

I never want to see these discussions turn personal. I think all of us want to find the answers and further research and study is necessary. I believe everyone involved has the passion of collecting and wants final answers to our discussion. I applaud all who participate with input and hope the posts that continue will be with added value and not with barbs thrown at each other.

I will not further bore you with this epistle, but will continue to search for answers from the original source.

Bob Hritz

[phild]

These smock have quite a few questions unanswered/red flags (unusual print, used buttons, no laces, no provenance, fake-seller, fantasy movie-company name, etc). For example, I have a very well made old fake ss camo uniform that has only one 1 issue (one single thread (used on only one button hole embroidery) did not pass the burn test) and That was enough for me to realize that it is fake. And how many red flags do you guys have here with pink smocks? And still trying to convince they are real. No, noway. Until each and every issue mentioned above is explained and supported by facts - they will remain fake. At least for me.

Many of your "issues" have in fact been addressed repeatly but still get listed as if never refuted. A page or two I reported on buttons found on my example and earlier on what I recalled with several others. One finding I had is that the buttons are NOT in fact used! They may be somewhat from different makers, so what? Neck laces have been beat to death. Few accepted have issue laces that came with them and we are not sure exactly when the lace and smock were married in the issue process.

I have often asked for just one example of a foreign produced uniform items from any country and for any service that used fabric made in and shipped from Germany. I have never gotten a taker. Somehow some people proclaim that these smocks of foreign made would have to have been made from ALL material sent from Germany and or made to precise SS quality control ( an oxymoron) when this was never done with any other uniform item.

[NickG]

Clarity of the origins lies with Floch and/or the Russian movie studio...Hope Bob gets answers for us!
It is like a good detective book! Clues, dead ends, etc...

OK so found in Czechoslovakia...No doubt made for the Egyptian army than (cancelled contract and diverted to Austria!!)
Case closed!

Seriously;
Has anybody tried posting some of the revelations on Russian Forum sites?
Such as: "sammler.ru" or "reibert.info" or "Blockhaus.ru" .... etc...

Wish I could...but I don't speak the language...

[Disco Partisan]

Many of your "issues" have in fact been addressed repeatly but still get listed as if never refuted. A page or two I reported on buttons found on my example and earlier on what I recalled with several others. One finding I had is that the buttons are NOT in fact used! They may be somewhat from different makers, so what? Neck laces have been beat to death. Few accepted have issue laces that came with them and we are not sure exactly when the lace and smock were married in the issue process.

I have often asked for just one example of a foreign produced uniform items from any country and for any service that used fabric made in and shipped from Germany. I have never gotten a taker. Somehow some people proclaim that these smocks of foreign made would have to have been made from ALL material sent from Germany and or made to precise SS quality control ( an oxymoron) when this was never done with any other uniform item.

see there are no answers, no solid explanations, no reasonings given. Only "what if"s. What if could pass only once or twice max but not when you have a bunch of them unless pinks clouded the mind.

[nutmeg]

see there are no answers, no solid explanations, no reasonings given. Only "what if"s. What if could pass only once or twice max but not when you have a bunch of them unless pinks clouded the mind.

Even when your questions are answered (in previous postings) you still keep asking them over and over. Then when it's not answered because it has been you think you've proven something (not sure exactly what) .

[nutmeg]

Clarity of the origins lies with Floch and/or the Russian movie studio...Hope Bob gets answers for us!
It is like a good detective book! Clues, dead ends, etc...

Has anybody tried posting some of the revelations on Russian Forum sites?
Such as: "sammler.ru" or "reibert.info" or "Blockhaus.ru" .... etc...

Wish I could...but I don't speak the language...

Andre might be able to he is a Minsk native .