"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

I have a half-sewn sleeve on an SS M44 tunic; extremely low quality control. Some of the liners and button holes on SS M43 are quite sloppy, with the stitching inconsistent.

The SS suffered from variances in their manufacture in technique, work quality, and consistency. The strict standard being adhered to until the end is a myth - the SS firms were no different when it came to manufacturing than anyone else. Factories were bombed, employees had bad days, materials were held up - it happened.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Sorry Mark I just read your last line.

German made items are one thing.

Polish made items are another.

They had standard fabric suppliers.

They had came cloth suppliers.

Even Italian Cammo cloth made into pullovers is standard.


SS items are a business.

They were the Costco of the system.

owen

[kammo man]

In Germany yes, if these were made in Poland or Bulgaria there will be differences to due supplies.

Negative

The system manufactured to a SS standard that was accepted.

The cammo cloth was high.

Even the shoddy B was WAY better than Pinks.

[nutmeg]

Negative

The system manufactured to a SS standard that was accepted.

The cammo cloth was high.

Even the shoddy B was WAY better than Pinks.

That's your opinion , but that's all it is. Anyhow this is pointless we're just spinning our wheels , yes it is , no it isn't.

I'll shoot the pockets on the pink smock and my plane tree together and then we can disagree on those results whatever they are.

[kammo man]

That's your opinion , but that's all it is. Anyhow this is pointless we're just spinning our wheels , yes it is , no it isn't.

I'll shoot the pockets on the pink smock and my plane tree together and then we can disagree on those results whatever they are.

Thats cool

But its already been called 20 years ago as fake.

Just like the CH Kelly Hicks fakes and the Lorenzo Fake SS helmet covers it needs to be exposed.


owen

[nutmeg]

Thats cool

But its already been called 20 years ago as fake.

And likely wrongly so.

Just like the CH Kelly Hicks fakes and the Lorenzo Fake SS helmet covers it needs to be exposed.


owen

Let's get something straight here , the CR helmets are not Kelly Hick's fakes, he didn't make them, he believed were real as did everyone else until just recently . I know Kelly very well and he is an honest guy.

I'm not arguing with you anymore ( but I respect your knowledge and passion). I'm just going to present opinion and facts as I see it.

[AdamT]

The whole discussion about the stamps is pointless. Even if you prove them to be original , the stamps do not legitimate the smocks. Yes, the movie industry in Soviet Union or any other communist country had plenty of original uniforms still, they could have plenty of quality copies.
I am sure they could order the production of 500 quality smocks if they needed them. And they could get them. I saw props made for a 70’s Polish historical production which were made in Russia and they were brilliant. Jewellery, arms, costumes everything was of the finest quality.
If you discuss the costs of production or hand sewn lace holes remember that the average month salary in early 80’s in these countries was some 20-30 USD. I mean black market value because you could not exchange USD in bank. I am sure that the production of these smock could have been arranged in the early 80’s in one of the communist country for next to nothing and the quality would still be great.
The stamps may have been added to legitimize the smocks. Every collector knew that there were plenty of original stuff used in the movies and a stamp would prove that the smock is one of them used in movie industry and so original.

I do not believe the Germans would arrange the production of a new pattern just to make 500 or a 1000 of smocks. The fabric for these smocks would be printed in a day and then what? Even if Germans decided to stop the production of pink smock after a day, they would still use the pattern. And they didn’t. Nobody ever saw pink colors or this specific pattern on any other garment but pink smocks. If they wanted to print some experimental colors, they would use a pattern that they already had, that is economy.

[pete]

Adam you have clearly got alot of reading to do on all the points you wrote, the key factor is:

"History from the THEN, not the NOW"....and,

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.".... in our case the "We have hit the limit of all there is to see and know"...which has been proven false time and time again with things real but never seen before!

"How could this be? NO WAY, Impossible, I AM, I have seen, I AM, Its fake because its fake and IAM, I have, I AM, They didnt/wouldnt have ever done that! I AM......" Thats the limitation of the old way of doing forensic analysis of items, in the past 25 years alot has become new and groundbreaking knowledge to ADVANCE the study of things, not from the "now"...from the "then".....people are living inside protective bubbles for the purpose of fear, greed and ego.....

In our case here, repetition of the same does not work anymore, we are far past that now. Thats why there are over 104,000 reads of this thread.

Some knowledge does indeed shake the "establishment"......and we arent done yet, if some dont want to help theres others who know people who know people....



Best regards

Pete

[90th Light]

......but I want to say that a big factor in the thickness and feel (and look) of hbt is determined by the fiber that it is made from. Cotton is much tighter and "thinner" in feel and neater in appearance than flax (linen). Rayon is a whole different matter of course but is often found in an hbt pattern with varying degrees of sheen.

I think that the pocket bags from these smocks are made from either 100% flax fiber (probable IMO) or a possibly a flax-cotton blend. Burn test that I did years ago seen to confirm this to my satisfaction.

Yesterday I wrote,

"The point is and thanks to nutmeg's smock, we now realise that the HBT is not different at all. Only a case of "not-washed" verses "lightly-washed" verses "heavily-washed" verses various "degrees of worn".

The Germans used this type of HBT on both uniforms and smocks especially in the period of late 1943 to 1945.

Here we were (for years) thinking that the HBT in the pockets of the "Pinks" ("Birch") was unusual, unique, foreign made when all along it was just rough, unfinished, ersatz, blended grey HBT typical of the time and challenges of production at that time"


Today reading phild's post quoted above, I realised I was only stressing part of a now developing picture.

The degree of washing as outlined above certainly plays a part in the appearance of the HBT and how it is perceived by collectors.

However, the other part is what it is made of and the ersatz blended nature of the yarn from which it is weaved as the war progressed. Phild's post alerted me to what I had not considered or stressed about HBT.

It is important for all to have a clear out-line and understanding, if they are to successfully identify the types of HBT being used by the Germans and other Axis members of the Third Reich;

1/ HBT fiber that it is made from "Cotton" is much tighter and "thinner" in feel and neater in appearance.

2/ HBT fibre made from "Rayon" is a whole different matter but is often found in that pattern with varying degrees of sheen.

3/ HBT fibre made from "Flax" ("Linen") is (thicker ?), raw, rough, semi-unfinished, ersatz & blended.

4/ HBT fibre made from blends involving 1&2, 1&3, 2&3, all three, other ersatz materials utilised.

The result, HBT "determined by the fiber that it is made from". Each type is different in "thickness, feel and look" from other types as the images in post numbers 1479 & 1458 illustrate.

My "Birch" ("Pink") smocks has HBT pockets of type 3/ or 4/ above and any washing has had an impact on them. However, I now wonder if the HBT in other "Birch" ("Pink") smock pockets used Type 1/ & 2/,

Chris

[phild]

I do not believe the Germans would arrange the production of a new pattern just to make 500 or a 1000 of smocks. The fabric for these smocks would be printed in a day and then what? Even if Germans decided to stop the production of pink smock after a day, they would still use the pattern. And they didn’t. Nobody ever saw pink colors or this specific pattern on any other garment but pink smocks. If they wanted to print some experimental colors, they would use a pattern that they already had, that is economy.

You entire post was very good and brought up some excellent points to consider. I cut out the section above just to clarify some things that I at least believe about these smocks.

I also do no believe that they made 500 of these during the war. That may be close to the number that came in to Austria and even survived until 1980, but I believe that they made in the area of several thousand minimum and maybe more and that very few got issued before they were captured and perhaps largely destroyed.

The problem with the pattern is this: the production facility printing the cloth either had the original pattern templates to copy or they didn't. This was 30 years before any kind of graphic computer capability and really closer to 50 years before this technology became in wide use. The only way BACK then to copy a pattern was to have the template for the rollers with color samples and codes for the passes (many templates involved with the printing) OR to make one from copying an existing item......the later was the case with these.

Many "accepted" smock "batches" contain shades/colors ONLY found in that one batch...you can search this forum (not this thread) and find that and find the discussions.


The accepted GERMAN made smocks in OL A and OL B ALL had access to the master pattern template to make accurate copies from to use in the printing. These were local and obtainable........the master nor copies were shipped to the USSR where these were probably made nor was ANY German material.....all of this was a LOCAL set up. Folks who say this was not done ONLY need to look at the Norwegian parkas posted and documented by Tom and other Norwegian collector to understand that the above conditions did exist and were MET the way that I described.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

The whole discussion about the stamps is pointless. Even if you prove them to be original , the stamps do not legitimate the smocks. Yes, the movie industry in Soviet Union or any other communist country had plenty of original uniforms still, they could have plenty of quality copies.
I am sure they could order the production of 500 quality smocks if they needed them. And they could get them. I saw props made for a 70’s Polish historical production which were made in Russia and they were brilliant. Jewellery, arms, costumes everything was of the finest quality.
If you discuss the costs of production or hand sewn lace holes remember that the average month salary in early 80’s in these countries was some 20-30 USD. I mean black market value because you could not exchange USD in bank. I am sure that the production of these smock could have been arranged in the early 80’s in one of the communist country for next to nothing and the quality would still be great.
The stamps may have been added to legitimize the smocks. Every collector knew that there were plenty of original stuff used in the movies and a stamp would prove that the smock is one of them used in movie industry and so original.

I do not believe the Germans would arrange the production of a new pattern just to make 500 or a 1000 of smocks. The fabric for these smocks would be printed in a day and then what? Even if Germans decided to stop the production of pink smock after a day, they would still use the pattern. And they didn’t. Nobody ever saw pink colors or this specific pattern on any other garment but pink smocks. If they wanted to print some experimental colors, they would use a pattern that they already had, that is economy.

+1

See You

Vince

[90th Light]

If these smocks were made by a factory in an occupied territory , there have GOT to be differences between those made in Germany. They would have used locally supplied materials which would have differed from what was used in Germany. Considering the huge shortages in Germany exact matches of material would have been not expected. At this point Germany is fighting to survive . If some local factory was able to make an acceptable knockoff of a smock I can't imagine they would not be accepted for use. This can't be looked at strictly from the point of view of the collector 70 years later. All sorts of ersatz goods are showing up by this point as the quality and supply of goods is diminishing.

Look at regular German tunics, made of Italian wool , shortening the tunics to save material and the diminishing amount of wool in all tunics as the war progresses.

nutmeg is absolutely correct with what he posts here,

In 1944, the German economy actually achieved economic growth. They finally reached the full limit of their Production Possibility Curve (PPC). Something that should of happened in 1940/ 41 if they were to invade Russia and win the war.

However, it is astounding that they did achieve Ec. growth in 1944 despite Allied bombing, shortages and the invasion of the Reich/ Germany itself. Speer achieved this by De-massified production. He pulled out all stops;


1/ Alternative facilities/ firms/ locations were fully utilised.

2/ Cottage industry production was massively expanded.

3/ De-centralised final assembly points were fully utilised.

4/ Factories recommissioned for parts only or use of what remained on a smaller scale.


This meant that Germany was switching from huge standardised factory industrial facilities, carrying out all manufacturing steps (being bombed to pieces). What was taking over, a "job-cost" type system along the lines of how LAGO & M.u.K. production had been organised for years

Owen (kammo man) keeps repeating that all SS smocks (other SS camo) items were produced and sewn up exactly the same way. He consistently repeats that this is different to how the "Birch"("Pinks") are made.

On this point I agree with him. We have both come to this conclusion on more than one thread discussing SS reversible camo caps. A collector can tell a lot by how they are sewn up and the lack of quality on "beyond doubt" originals.

However, this observation of standardised "rough" type production only applies to SS items made in concentration camps and other SS press-gang slave facilities. Such institutions often had to utilise unskilled labor and train them quickly to achieve unreasonably high daily quotas of production.

What he is not taking into account is the highly skilled, private enterprise firms which in 1943 were re-utilised/ diverted into new areas of production. For example, during 1943 Parade and even Walking Out uniforms were seen as no longer being needed. Such clothing production facilities would be better used on combat clothing manufacture. Another example is tropical uniforms, all production of these seems to have stopped by the end of 1944. The quality of many tropical uniforms makers was high so what uniform products did they convert over to making in 1944 and 1945 ?

There is also the fact of the SS running a huge industrial empire to produce what they needed and make impressive profits. The concentration (slave-labour) camps were a big part of this. However, not the only large part. The SS owned, took over, confiscated and stole many private businesses/ firms. For example, the Ghetto system which possessed many fine top of the line tailors and small/ medium clothing factories. Then there were the willing, privately owned joint stock companies. These owners were often Nazi/ SS party members, only all too keen to tended for lucrative SS contracts. Many of these Ghetto & private companies still had access to reasonable numbers of highly skilled artisans/ tradespeople/ machinists/ specialists to produce their products or train others to do so.



What does all this mean ?

It is a huge over-simplification (gross error) to say that all SS camo clothing should be of a consistently rough concentration camp type production. The concentration camps certainly appear to have made a lot of what has survived to this day and may be even the majority of it. However, there is no proof that they made all of it.

Given the expansion of the Waffen SS in the years 1943 & 1944. Given the shortages of production facilities and materials for this expansion. Not to mention loss of production facilities as the Reich was bombed & invaded. Then every available avenue of production had to be utilised. That means other (higher quality in some cases) clothing manufacturers making SS camo clothing.

The "Birch" ("Pink") is an example of an SS camo smock made by a Ghetto/ Private enterprise firm. Probably in another part of the Third Reich, other than Germany, June 1943 to May 1944 (approximately ?). They have had to utilise materials of a later war, ersatz, raw, rough, blended nature to met their production quotas. The order may have been a smaller job-cost type when compared the standardised mass-production runs of the concentration (slave labour) camp system,

Chris

[phild]

See Posts 412 and 413, both made very seriously by a serious person who did not comment again (and who no longer comments here on this forum at all)......


.......What if these were made during the war, but not by or for, the Germans?

Leroy, I went back and read Pieter's comments. I recall them at the time (I think) but he offered not other details or explanation. Your comments above reflect my guess as to what he was talking about. I too have considered if these could/would have been made wartime by the Soviets to use in covert operations or training films and exercises like the now understood so-called mobilization tunics that we now know were made by the British for training use.

My problem with that theory is again the detail and the fact that I think that the Soviets would have made the colors closer to fool (for covert operations) as their science skill was very high. Its really impossible to say, but these seem overly elaborate for use in training and to some degree even to use as a ruse......also is the fact that by the time these would have been made by the Soviets late 43 or more likely 44 in order to get the sample and set up ....etc.. to make them.....well I think that they had plenty of originals to use by that point of the war.

These would be much more problematic to explain as real if they were the so-called M40 pattern, but IMO become very hard to explain as copies in that they are the M42 pattern.

[pete]

.

I have one friend whose country or unit i will not name, who wore enemy uniforms on operations in combat at great risk if captured. Enemy uniforms when worn have to look good from a distance and standing right next to them, they have to be 100% perfect in thier wear, badges and traditions, customs on that battle area, that time frame, and people trained in mannerisims and accents and other knowledge wearing them - alot to prepare before approaching the enemy forces on purpose or by accident. All of these uniforms were either previously captured or taken somehow, and even in short timelines before being worn. Nothing was ever mimicked and copied as the risks were too great up close when approaching enemy positions where verbal contact or questions might arise, which was always avoided. Enemy uniforms was most always a distance thing as going into an enemy area where nobody knows your face is not like on movies for real.

Think about now trying to approach an enemy who wears apples which are red with pinkish red apples that no one has seen before...even at a distance, they will notice something is not right. I would imagine the Soviets would be making use of exact captured materials for all covert ops and tailor made to what the situation and task was, not making new ones for use in the field. The risk would be too great if anything was even remotely wrong up close. However,thats just an opinion not anyway a fact or else you would probably see a similiar pattern but on a different cut, close but clearly unique up close. I believe these are not made by the soviets or they would be made with clearly different features that would point to that they are just soviet props not meant for any covert purpose, however, who knows....and again, stamps on other real items.....and why......so if the soviets copied or made a covert only use smock, where and what pink german smock did they copy it from?

Just my 2 cents about human nature regarding the covert idea,connected to no fact, just Soldier knowledge and listening to that from someone who lived through that risk before.

Pete

[90th Light]

Are there any examples of any army manufacturing enemy camo uniforms or uniforms in general, to fight dressed as their enemy. Thus being able to enter or fight behind enemy lines ???

In the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans who got behind the USA lines dressed a GI's were wearing captured American made uniforms.

Brings to mind that wonderful story the actor British actor and former WW2 army officer David Niven use to tell about the battle;

Asked by suspicious American sentries during the Battle of the Bulge who had won the World Series in 1943, he answered "Haven't the foggiest idea ... but I did co-star with Ginger Rogers in Bachelor Mother!" On another occasion, asked how he felt about serving with the British Army in Europe, he allegedly said 'Well on the whole, I would rather be tickling Ginger Rogers' tits'

Chris