"Pink" smock or not?

[kammo man]

Negative.
SS manufacturing is uniform across the board excluding NCO - officers items.

Cammo pullovers follow manufacturing techniques that are pretty standard throughout the war.

The pinks don't follow these crude methods.

[NZMark]

Negative.
SS manufacturing is uniform across the board excluding NCO - officers items.

Cammo pullovers follow manufacturing techniques that are pretty standard throughout the war.

The pinks don't follow these crude methods.

Agreed,
The Birch pattern smocks certainly aren't crudely manufactured.
Mark
NZ

[kammo man]

There were 3 Plane Tree patterns which were numbered 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6...
This one (Peter's) is a pattern referred to as 3-4. Right? Quite complicated!

It is explained here (where the pinks are identified as fakes from Berman & Nathan, costumers in London in the 1980's...)
That turned out to be false...(not corrected on this site...)

http://www.atthefront.com/HR/g/uni_sscamo.html


To me the HBT of the pocket liners of the Pink looks convincing though...but that's based on a photo...you have to touch it I guess...
but if its treated with a detergent, distressed, washed out I guess that makes it even harder...and if these are period occupied territory contracted smocks,
any German spec goes out the window with the use of (foreign) ersatz materials...These smocks were rejected because they did not appear to be textbook...
I guess the 64,000 dollar question is do they need to be text book for them to be real? We are comparing apples with pears, a mistake...
The answer of their true origins lies with the Minsk source...provided the stamps are real! (I doubt that these are fake and were planted to confuse/deceive....
if so, why deface them?...and why not have these applied to all the smocks if its a fraudulent stamp...)...More questions than answers...Add to that the fact that these
stamps are overkill...multiple colors, multiple shapes...if placed in the smocks to confuse a simple stamp like the real one in post # 1478 would have been sufficient!
Simple, 1 color...
.

Nick,
3-4 is complex.
Its got 2 major color traits.
The one seen in the pockets above is the common one.
owen

[nutmeg]

Negative.
SS manufacturing is uniform across the board excluding NCO - officers items.

Cammo pullovers follow manufacturing techniques that are pretty standard throughout the war.

The pinks don't follow these crude methods.

I agree they are not crude by any means , there was probably some sort of SS inspector at the factory. What I am saying is the material would be locally sourced and therefore different from smocks made in Germany of German goods.

To me the main story is the 1947 markings which are also in good smocks (and maybe other items) which indicate these are wartime manufacture. No one in their right mind would put fake Russian markings to help sell perfectly original smocks when at the time it would be more likely to lessen their value. I don't know Floch but I'm sure he was no fool. This is the Rosetta Stone for these IMO.

Now back to the Republican debate

[kammo man]

Agreed,
The Birch pattern smocks certainly aren't crudely manufactured.
Mark
NZ

And thats a major problem.



Genuine SS manufactured items were strictly controlled through the internal SS money making system.
It was an SS controlled business with their standards.
Remember this ALWAYS

owen

[kammo man]

It comes down to SS manufacturing.

ALL PULLOVERS ARE SEWN in a particular way.
Dot is sewn the same
Oak panzer suits the same
Panzer combis the same
Helmet covers the same
Cammo caps the same



The pinks are not.

They do not make sense in the WW2 German camouflage manufacturing story.

There so so many red flags its like David Hasselhoff is saying DO NOT SWIN today !
DANGER DANGER .

He's well liked in Germany but not the Pink.

[NZMark]

Owen,
I do, absolutely take this factor into my logic. I've narrowed my interest down over the years to tropical collecting (not specifically - nice to keep my options open) and I agree that the German's kept production of factory items within a 'tolerance' level of acceptability.
We see this on tropical clothing - breeches are collectable in their own right for their 'blousing' variations, - tie leg bottoms or lace up, tunics for the base material colour variations and cut, pockets having 'clipped' corners or round, scalloped pocket flaps having a gentle or drastic(!) curvature, caps having a high peak, low scalloped 'false turn-up', long or short bill, one or no grommets instead of the 'standard' two per side, base twill colour or even made from canvas...and this is all early production stuff - just wait until the LaGo system kicked in. Now imagine a line up on a parade ground with all these variations standing along side each other, straight from the factory...
Simple production needs versus what was available to the manufacturer and their location - and when - must be considered.
Let go of the German factory made item for the Birch smock, that isn't being argued here - so we cannot compare apples with apples....
Mark
NZ

[Leroy]

See Posts 412 and 413, both made very seriously by a serious person who did not comment again (and who no longer comments here on this forum at all).

Time for all to step back after 100 pages of increasingly bad feelings?

Who knows what the Russian MOD had in its possession shortly after the war or why it had it or who made it - and exactly when and for what purpose? Conclusions were drawn, legitimately if not necessarily accurately, about these things when they appeared, by people with separate beliefs and separate motivations.

What if these were made during the war, but not by or for, the Germans?

[nutmeg]

But if they are made in an occupied territory as I suspect they may have been they HAVE to be somewhat different then those made in Germany. They are not going to import German goods East to make what they could make in Germany.

I would point out that the OST HBT 4 pocket tunic for the volunteers troops are made differently then those for the Wehrmacht. It's possible these smocks were made to supplement shortages for some of the SS Volunteer formations in the East.

I agree with you what is made in Germany is standardized. Once you leave Germany all bets are off.

It comes down to SS manufacturing.

ALL PULLOVERS ARE SEWN in a particular way.
Dot is sewn the same
Oak panzer suits the same
Panzer combis the same
Helmet covers the same
Cammo caps the same



The pinks are not.

They do not make sense in the WW2 German camouflage manufacturing story.

There so so many red flags its like David Hasselhoff is saying DO NOT SWIN today !
DANGER DANGER .

He's well liked in Germany but not the Pink.

[NZMark]

See Posts 412 and 413, both made very seriously by a serious person who did not comment again (and who no longer comments here on this forum at all).

Time for all to step back after 100 pages of increasingly bad feelings?

Who knows what the Russian MOD had in its possession shortly after the war or why it had it or who made it - and exactly when and for what purpose? Conclusions were drawn, legitimately if not necessarily accurately, about these things when they appeared, by people with separate beliefs and separate motivations.

What if these were made during the war, but not by or for, the Germans?

Indeed - But some elaboration would help the rest of us?!
Regards,
Mark
NZ

[kammo man]

This thread is being dominated by posters with limited actual experience of handling genuine SS manufactured pieces.

This is really showing with the long winded what ifs type posting.



owen

[kammo man]

Owen,
I do, absolutely take this factor into my logic. I've narrowed my interest down over the years to tropical collecting (not specifically - nice to keep my options open) and I agree that the German's kept production of factory items within a 'tolerance' level of acceptability.
We see this on tropical clothing - breeches are collectable in their own right for their 'blousing' variations, - tie leg bottoms or lace up, tunics for the base material colour variations and cut, pockets having 'clipped' corners or round, scalloped pocket flaps having a gentle or drastic(!) curvature, caps having a high peak, low scalloped 'false turn-up', long or short bill, one or no grommets instead of the 'standard' two per side, base twill colour or even made from canvas...and this is all early production stuff - just wait until the LaGo system kicked in. Now imagine a line up on a parade ground with all these variations standing along side each other, straight from the factory...
Simple production needs versus what was available to the manufacturer and their location - and when - must be considered.
Let go of the German factory made item for the Birch smock, that isn't being argued here - so we cannot compare apples with apples....
Mark
NZ

Mark .
SS factory made came items are just like what you collect.
Very specific.
owen

[kammo man]

But if they are made in an occupied territory as I suspect they may have been they HAVE to be somewhat different then those made in Germany. They are not going to import German goods East to make what they could make in Germany.

I would point out that the OST HBT 4 pocket tunic for the volunteers troops are made differently then those for the Wehrmacht. It's possible these smocks were made to supplement shortages for some of the SS Volunteer formations in the East.

I agree with you what is made in Germany is standardized. Once you leave Germany all bets are off.

Yes but the SS factory system was just that.
A system.
They had managers and standards that were VERY strict.

[nutmeg]

Yes but the SS factory system was just that.
A system.
They had managers and standards that were VERY strict.

In Germany yes, if these were made in Poland or Bulgaria there will be differences to due supplies.

[phild]

Owen,
I do, absolutely take this factor into my logic. I've narrowed my interest down over the years to tropical collecting (not specifically - nice to keep my options open) and I agree that the German's kept production of factory items within a 'tolerance' level of acceptability.
We see this on tropical clothing - breeches are collectable in their own right for their 'blousing' variations, - tie leg bottoms or lace up, tunics for the base material colour variations and cut, pockets having 'clipped' corners or round, scalloped pocket flaps having a gentle or drastic(!) curvature, caps having a high peak, low scalloped 'false turn-up', long or short bill, one or no grommets instead of the 'standard' two per side, base twill colour or even made from canvas...and this is all early production stuff - just wait until the LaGo system kicked in. Now imagine a line up on a parade ground with all these variations standing along side each other, straight from the factory...
Simple production needs versus what was available to the manufacturer and their location - and when - must be considered.
Let go of the German factory made item for the Birch smock, that isn't being argued here - so we cannot compare apples with apples....
Mark
NZ

Of course this (above) is the correct answer. We can even illustrate your observations with fully accepted SS camo and tropical uniforms for another 90 pages on this thread if it necessary.

It depended on where/who made the item as MarkNZ states and this is also true of SS made clothing. Some SS smocks are much better sewn than others. The same is true of every other SS item. These Birch smocks were in all likelihood made outside of Germany and made in a factory contracted by the local SS supply depot (TWL) as Andrew Mollo explains on page 37 Volume 7 of SS Uniforms or perhaps made in an factory controlled by the local SS TWL. Either way the skill of the labor and production stress would have been at a level that better work could be done in case of these smocks.

It is interesting, but may not be related to these smocks, that the cities of Minsk and the city of Bobruisk (about 2 hours away) both Belarus, were very important textile weaving and textile manufacturing centers in the Soviet Union and in fact for hundreds of years prior to WWII. Bobruisk was also the location of an SS TWL (they had the authority to locally contract for uniforms and other goods and in the case of TWL Bobruisk were required to maintain an uniform stock ON HAND for about 3 divisions). Also interesting is that much of the SS TWL operation was moved from Bobruisk in late 1942 to an area not far from Minsk. Both Bobruisk and Minsk were captured in July 1944 during the Soviet summer offensive of 44.....and they fell fast and with tremendous loses of equipment and German military personnel.

For the sake of some previous posts on buttons, I just rechecked my smock carefully and can report the following:

All 4 buttons without any question are originally sewn on my smock....that is none re-sewn. All four show white zinc type oxidation on the backs (fairly light and not chemical induced!) and have since 1981 when I first looked at the backs of them....there is no noticeable increase....so I have owned the smock of almost half its life and the oxidation got on the buttons the first half and not continued in the conditions that I have maintained it. Now, all four buttons are un-worn with no signs of ever having been worn. Two of the buttons match and are unmarked, One is marked RSS (a maker that I have seen on a lot of SS M42 and M43 tunics) and one is marked B (then the shank) J and underneath 42......obviously the date.......So 2 match with color and backmark, one matches with color only and the other is a little darker and is the 42 dated one.