"Pink" smock or not?

[90th Light]

Hi,

the fact that Mr. Hritz knows Mr. Floch and that Mr. Floch told him that "all was real" is not a proof that the pink smocks are real. This is the same for the testimony of Mr. Royster.

But on another hands, just Google "Floch Militaria" and you will find dozen of topics on dozen of different faked militaria items produced/sold by Mr. Floch.

With someone like Mr. Floch who is KNOWN to have flooded the market with fakes, it is more important to remember that proved fact than that Mr. Floch "has found more original German WWII militaria than any other person".

I smells a rat, you can smell what you want, but Mr. Floch is known to be a major faker. That's it. Facts.

See You

Vince

Do you actually have any facts in this matter or are you just posting for the sake of it ?

Now, you are accusing Bob of some sort of corruption in all of this and what he has posted about these.

That is so far off the mark it is not even funny,

Chris

[90th Light]

re reading this thread gives me doubts that the believers in pink jackets are sane.

owen

And that Owen, "would be the pot calling the kettle black on a coal range"

All you need to worry about is yourself mate,

Chris

[phild]

I made my post above (#882) before reading Chris's post 881 or the others below mine (of course) but Chris's point and mine are the same.

I did visit Floch in his shop in Vienna in 1983 or 84 and spent some time there. We did not discuss these smocks as I did not know his connection with them (4 years earlier) but I did know him a bit from the large US shows in the later 1970s where we had met.

I knew then that he was very involved with fakes.....mostly badges, cloth insignia (SS cuff titles were very big) and medals. I can tell anyone that he had "tons" of 100% original items in his shop as well at that time.

As an aside and reversion back to the post concerning Royster, it has been written on this forum dozens of times that back in the early 1980s there was widespread belief (but not knowledge) that these red smocks had been made for a Eastern European movie prop studio. I can only say again that I fully reject that theory for many many reasons. These reasons have been listed in earlier posts on this subject, but the ONE factor in that believe back then (aside from the slight differences between these and typical German produced SS smocks) were the stamps. We now know that these stamps do not indicated that items bearing them were made for prop use, but are property stamps by both the Soviet War department and then later transfer to a Moscow museum or perhaps film organization from the Soviet military.

Again it took nearly 30 years after these appeared just to sort out that above information.

[Dennis S]

Regardless if the smocks are original or fakes , isn't R.D. Royster actually a fake name and pseudonym . Kind of negates any reason to accept any truthfulness of his quoted summary.

[B. N. Singer]

...a fake name and pseudonym...

Geez, that's 90% of the people posting on the WAF!

B. N. Singer

[David Fettes]

Just a quick question............if these were made for a Eastern European movie prop studio, has anybody seen a post war Eastern European film where these are being worn?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

new reply of Mr. Royster to the questions asked to him here on the WAF :

The initial appearance of the "blue" post WW II-manufactured SS camouflage smocks was in 1989.

The stamps were added by Mr. Floch.

They are Cyrillic stamps, not Soviet, Russian or Bulgarian.

It amazes me that no one has bothered to translate the Cyrillic into English.

The "blue" smocks are certainly not original to the Second World War and were produced, and are being produced now, in Poland.

Ergo the story about the recent appearance of terrible fake "SS camouflage helmet covers," alleged to have been recently found in some mythical Polish bunker is very close to the truth but not in the sense that the dealer and his victims wish.. As to the "red" smocks, they are from the same source.

They cost an American dealer $50.00 plus postage.

These fake items, unlike the originals, are not waterproof.

The capacity of people to believe what they wish is not a new phenomenon.

Self-delusion has been rampant since the first Cro-Magnon appeared on the scene 35,000 years ago.

The two types of smocks, and the helmet covers are not original, no matter how frantically collectors possessing them want them to be.

Unusued "Leber pattern" very late war universal camouflage pattern cloth was discovered by a British dealer in a German factory after the war and this has been made up into various items of camouflage. No such clothing was ever issued to Germans, no matter how desperately owners of them claim. The cloth is original and was intended to replace all other existing camouflage items, to include the Heer and the Waffen-SS (and Luftwaffe feld divisions and the HG Panzer Division). It did not but what the dealers are selling are not fakes but dreams!

Considering the interest being expressed, I intend to do an illustrated article on both of these styles on my site very soon.

See You

Vince

[90th Light]

Hi,

new reply of Mr. Royster to the questions asked to him here on the WAF :
The initial appearance of the "blue" post WW II-manufactured SS camouflage smocks was in 1989.
The stamps were added by Mr. Floch.
They are Cyrillic stamps, not Soviet, Russian or Bulgarian.
It amazes me that no one has bothered to translate the Cyrillic into English.
The "blue" smocks are certainly not original to the Second World War and were produced, and are being produced now, in Poland.
Ergo the story about the recent appearance of terrible fake "SS camouflage helmet covers," alleged to have been recently found in some mythical Polish bunker is very close to the truth but not in the sense that the dealer and his victims wish.. As to the "red" smocks, they are from the same source.
They cost an American dealer $50.00 plus postage.
These fake items, unlike the originals, are not waterproof.
The capacity of people to believe what they wish is not a new phenomenon.
Self-delusion has been rampant since the first Cro-Magnon appeared on the scene 35,000 years ago.
The two types of smocks, and the helmet covers are not original, no matter how frantically collectors possessing them want them to be.
Unusued "Leber pattern" very late war universal camouflage pattern cloth was discovered by a British dealer in a German factory after the war and this has been made up into various items of camouflage. No such clothing was ever issued to Germans, no matter how desperately owners of them claim. The cloth is original and was intended to replace all other existing camouflage items, to include the Heer and the Waffen-SS (and Luftwaffe feld divisions and the HG Panzer Division). It did not but what the dealers are selling are not fakes but dreams!
Considering the interest being expressed, I intend to do an illustrated article on both of these styles on my site very soon.

See You

Vince

???

This reads like nothing more than the rambling it is,

Chris

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Chris, were did you saw that i was implying that Mr. Hirtz was trying to protect Mr. Floch ?

I clearly say that the testimonies of Mr. Hritz and Royster (implying that the two spoke and knew well Mr. Floch) are just testimonies, and that we need more proof.

Don't imply anything if you are not able to read (and understand) properly.

What i see is that if it is true - like Mr. Hritz said - that Mr. Floch was the best to surface great stuff, i also see that he FLOODED the market with fakes.
And that fact is documented. But again, please take the time to check on the internet. If this is Mr. Floch who surfaced all the pink smocks, the same dealer had an history of dealing/producing (?) fakes.

See You

Vince

[90th Light]

Hi,

Chris, were did you saw that i was implying that Mr. Hirtz was trying to protect Mr. Floch ?

I clearly say that the testimonies of Mr. Hritz and Royster (implying that the two spoke and knew well Mr. Floch) are just testimonies, and that we need more proof.

Don't imply anything if you are not able to read (and understand) properly.

What i see is that if it is true - like Mr. Hritz said - that Mr. Floch was the best to surface great stuff, i also see that he FLOODED the market with fakes.
And that fact is documented. But again, please take the time to check on the internet. If this is Mr. Floch who surfaced all the pink smocks, the same dealer had an history of dealing/producing (?) fakes.

Vince

Then go back and read between the lines for yourself what you wrote and see what it says;

Hi,

the fact that Mr. Hritz knows Mr. Floch and that Mr. Floch told him that "all was real"

I smells a rat, you can smell what you want, but Mr. Floch is known to be a major faker. That's it. Facts.

See You

Vince

I am not implying anything only trying to comprehend what you are writing,

Chris

[Dennis S]

Ha ha you got me on that one, but I personally go by my given Christian first name. I also give full disclosure off line . If you drop Royster a line and ask him who he really is , I'm not so sure you will get the same results.

QUOTE=B. N. Singer;7157691]Geez, that's 90% of the people posting on the WAF!

B. N. Singer[/QUOTE]

[Dennis S]

Floch made many fakes and never had a problem telling what was . I think he was very proud of his creations. It was the dealers that bought from him changed the tale. I don't know personally what he said of the smocks.

[derka]

[...]Unusued "Leber pattern" very late war universal camouflage pattern cloth was discovered by a British dealer in a German factory after the war and this has been made up into various items of camouflage. No such clothing was ever issued to Germans, [...]

I thought some period pics showed the contrary, during surrender in may 1945 ?
derka

[NickG]

Hi,


Unusued "Leber pattern" very late war universal camouflage pattern cloth was discovered by a British dealer in a German factory after the war and this has been made up into various items of camouflage. No such clothing was ever issued to Germans, no matter how desperately owners of them claim. The cloth is original and was intended to replace all other existing camouflage items, to include the Heer and the Waffen-SS (and Luftwaffe feld divisions and the HG Panzer Division). It did not but what the dealers are selling are not fakes but dreams!

Considering the interest being expressed, I intend to do an illustrated article on both of these styles on my site very soon.[/I]

See You

Vince

I thought some period pics showed the contrary, during surrender in may 1945 ?
derka

Of course it was...He is deadwrong...Liebermuster war time issuance is legit...something that was revealed not too long ago with clear period photographic proof ...
We are still learning and have to be open minded!

[NickG]

Note breast eagle! Vince is correct that it was universal camo (einhheitztarn) intended for all branches, not just SS! Lots of Lieber tarn here!!!


Even captured by the Russians and used!