"Pink" smock or not?

[phild]

Pink smocks are also smocks, if they are fakes or real, I still haven't learnt... But whatever they are, they are at least old enough to be collectable... I'd buy one to keep it, my gut says they may be legit, made somewhere East of Germany, they messed up they colours of the print, it was never issued nor never destroyed, survived in a warehouse somewhere and puzzles collectors still today. Another theory...

You summed up the situation very well. I would suggest that the colors are not necessarily wrong or "messed up" but just (for some of the color shades not all) a little different than some German made SS smocks.....and those varied among themselves. Also these may have been captured long before the end of the war by the Soviets. They made large gains very rapidly after Stalingrad during the Spring and Summer of 1943. By the Autumn of 1944 they had re-taken most all of the territory of the USSR.........Lots of German supplies were captured.

Even if many hundreds of these smocks had been issued before the bulk was captured, it would be very unlikely that we would find photos of them or at least be able to tell for sure it is this type of smock. I think only one of two period photos of HBT SS smocks being worn are known for instance....no doubt that a good many of those were made.

[blamers]

Weight

I also discover that the weight of a pink smock is half of an original.

Also the cloth is very different., very thin. With a light under the cloth it shines through very easy.

I did sell mine for $350, because nothing feels original. Compared with originals.
Not even water repellant.

IMO a original copy.

[NickG]

I also discover that the weight of a pink smock is half of an original.

Also the cloth is very different., very thin. With a light under the cloth it shines through very easy.

I did sell mine for $350, because nothing feels original. Compared with originals.
Not even water repellant.

IMO a original copy.

HBT printed material smocks are also different in "see through-ness", touch, weight, and non repellent characteristics...
Not a strong argument in my view, just different material!
The smocks could have been sourced and made somewhere in the East using non textbook materials and stayed in the East unused... hence the late 40's USSR inventory property stamps appearing on some of these (Baltic made?) captured smocks. Why not?
a Product of "SS Ostindistrie GmbH"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostindustrie
or DAW (Deutsche Ausrustungswerke GmbH) also SS controlled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsc...%BCstungswerke

I honestly also had strong doubts until the authentic (and identical) Russian property stamps were discovered and deciphered in pinks and text book smocks,
which made me much more open minded about these, regardless of the anomalies! There is still a lot to learn about this hobby!

[phild]

All true above.

It's funny that we had a late war zelt posted here in the last week that is clearly of a material that is hardly even close in quality to earlier Zelts, but everyone was lathering over it. It has been written here maybe 100 times in posts on these that it is a mistake to approach these as a 1:1 comparison to a German made SS smock because like EVERY other foreign made counterpart there ARE fundamental differences. It does not matter obviously.

[kammo man]

All true above.

It's funny that we had a late war zelt posted here in the last week that is clearly of a material that is hardly even close in quality to earlier Zelts, but everyone was lathering over it. It has been written here maybe 100 times in posts on these that it is a mistake to approach these as a 1:1 comparison to a German made SS smock because like EVERY other foreign made counterpart there ARE fundamental differences. It does not matter obviously.

Pretty simple.
The late war zelt was real WW2
The pink smock is not.

[Graham G]

All true above.

It's funny that we had a late war zelt posted here in the last week that is clearly of a material that is hardly even close in quality to earlier Zelts, but everyone was lathering over it. It has been written here maybe 100 times in posts on these that it is a mistake to approach these as a 1:1 comparison to a German made SS smock because like EVERY other foreign made counterpart there ARE fundamental differences. It does not matter obviously.

Out of curiosity, please post other foreign made camo. I'm curious to see these massive differences in dyes, pattern, materials, etc etc.

[phild]

Out of curiosity, please post other foreign made camo. I'm curious to see these massive differences in dyes, pattern, materials, etc etc.

The foreign made items that I was referring to in the previous is not by and large camo items, although some interesting variation of SS (Oak A I think) made in Norway and heretofore largely unknown outside of Norway.

I was talking about the very different fabrics (including color shades) that came from Italy, others from Holland and still more from France (mostly KM uniform items). There is also a very distinctive (different weave no nap different shade...) feldgrau uniform cloth that is attributed to Belarus that shows up in some W-SS M 43 tunics and caps.

Still after several years now there has not been even one serious explanation to account for the Soviet stamps in these smocks if they were fake.

Anyone who says that these were not in these smocks in 1980/81 when they appeared did not look them then....end of story.

[phild]

Pretty simple.
The late war zelt was real WW2
The pink smock is not.

But how could it be real if it is different? There seems to be a consensus (love that word) that there was one grade of cotton duck and one type of HBT used in all SS uniform items.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

testimony from Arthur Royster i contacted to know if he knew anything on this subject. Arthur gave me the permission to post his reply.

Some time ago, Vincent, Johannes Floch, an Austrian militaria dealer,
showed up with a bundle of SS camouflage smocks at American shows.
These had a bluish-cast when viewed at a distance.
There were pebbled Wehrmacht buttons on the pockets but none of them were matching.
Inside the side pockets were a stamp with Cyrillic letters in a black border.
They looked nicely done but Floch told me they had been made up for a Czech movie company and he had a rubber stamp made up
so he could claim they came from a Russian source.
They were, he said, made to post-war order using recently-manufactured SS-style camouflage cloth.
Now we have similar "Russian finds" but of a reddish hue.
I have looked one of these over and they are identical with the Floch earlier fakes and so are the stamps in the pocket.

Is Mr. Floch still alive ?
I would be interested to contact him.
If anyone is having his contact, i would be happy to contact him and provide his testimony.

See You

Vince

[kammo man]

Hi,

testimony from Arthur Royster i contacted to know if he knew anything on this subject. Arthur gave me the permission to post his reply.

Some time ago, Vincent, Johannes Floch, an Austrian militaria dealer,
showed up with a bundle of SS camouflage smocks at American shows.
These had a bluish-cast when viewed at a distance.
There were pebbled Wehrmacht buttons on the pockets but none of them were matching.
Inside the side pockets were a stamp with Cyrillic letters in a black border.
They looked nicely done but Floch told me they had been made up for a Czech movie company and he had a rubber stamp made up
so he could claim they came from a Russian source.
They were, he said, made to post-war order using recently-manufactured SS-style camouflage cloth.
Now we have similar "Russian finds" but of a reddish hue.
I have looked one of these over and they are identical with the Floch earlier fakes and so are the stamps in the pocket.

Is Mr. Floch still alive ?
I would be interested to contact him.
If anyone is having his contact, i would be happy to contact him and provide his testimony.

See You

Vince

nice Pre Internet stuff from a master of wordzzzz.

[90th Light]

And directly from a collector who really knows his stuff, was there at the time, knew Floch personally then, and still does now. Plus he saw the rodent damaged smocks that were on the top of the bales. In fact I am told he even had a rodent chewed sleeve at one stage;

The only connection to Austria is that Johannes Floch found them. From what I was told and believe, Johan found these in Czechoslovakia. Johannes Floch has found more original German WWII militaria than any other person. I heard it from his lips and I believe him. He has never been anything but open and honest with me. And YES, Johan is a dear friend of mine for 45 years.

Bob Hritz

Thus the point of FrenchVolunteer's post number 879 in all of this is other than being pointless hearsay ???

Chris

[phild]

Hi,

testimony from Arthur Royster i contacted to know if he knew anything on this subject. Arthur gave me the permission to post his reply.

Some time ago, Vincent, Johannes Floch, an Austrian militaria dealer,
showed up with a bundle of SS camouflage smocks at American shows.
These had a bluish-cast when viewed at a distance.
There were pebbled Wehrmacht buttons on the pockets but none of them were matching.
Inside the side pockets were a stamp with Cyrillic letters in a black border.
They looked nicely done but Floch told me they had been made up for a Czech movie company and he had a rubber stamp made up
so he could claim they came from a Russian source.
They were, he said, made to post-war order using recently-manufactured SS-style camouflage cloth.
Now we have similar "Russian finds" but of a reddish hue.
I have looked one of these over and they are identical with the Floch earlier fakes and so are the stamps in the pocket.

Is Mr. Floch still alive ?
I would be interested to contact him.
If anyone is having his contact, i would be happy to contact him and provide his testimony.

See You

Vince

I think that most of us are familiar with A.D. Royster or at least his musings on fakes. I welcome all information, but the comments above really offer nothing.
Can anyone post one of the "blue" smocks referenced....there were apparently a good number of them.
Can Mr. Royster provide the year (approx) that this occurred?
It would not have been a matter of making one type of stamp but rather several types of stamps as multiple stamps are found in many/most of the red smocks.
Many of the buttons on the red smocks DO match.
I assume that the blue smocks with the fake stamps were introduced after the early 1990s? I say this because NO ONE had a clue to the array of ink stamps until that time frame.....at the that time and for many years afterwards they served mainly to DECREASE the value of an item.....more so than they authenicated an item by themselves.

Other accounts that we have received by some of the most respected members of this forum who re-counted Floch's involvement with the red smocks run opposite of this account.......although this is really about "blue" smocks.

We need to figure out and address how Soviet stamps that appear in a number of 100% accepted original items, including some W-SS camo.....also were placed in these red smocks (and them mostly removed) some 10-15 PRIOR (at least) to any collector or dealer having any understanding or knowledge of said stamps.

Perhaps Mr. Royster has some answers that simple but pivotal question.

[90th Light]

I bought mine from Johannes Floch. Johannes found these in Czechoslovakia in bales. This was from such a bale. There were somcks that were greatly damaged from rodent chewing and I recall one missing one sleeve and shoulder to such damage. All had been washed to obtain export papers to get them to Austria.

Whatever anyone wants to comment about my friend, Johannes Floch, I will state that I have never seen him sell anything described as anything but what it is. I asked Johannes about the smocks and he told me they were found in Czechoslovakia and I believe him. He has never lied to me since we met in 1971.

If you have a mint tropical overseas cap, a mint boxed bronze or silver Herman Aurich tank badge, a mint packeted JFS Infantry assault badge. one of the hundreds of mint Allgemeine-SS numbered cuff titles (to include all the Sanitats-Abteilung XXXIII titles), mint Theodor Eicke white bevo cuff titles, and thousands of other original pieces of insignia, they may well have come from Johannes Floch. Johannes was the most successful Third Reich relic hunter and spent decades searching for material from original sources. At any MAX Show or Show of Shows, introduce yourself to Johannes and ask him.

Bob Hritz

Says it all,

Chris

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

the fact that Mr. Hritz knows Mr. Floch and that Mr. Floch told him that "all was real" is not a proof that the pink smocks are real. This is the same for the testimony of Mr. Royster.

But on another hands, just Google "Floch Militaria" and you will find dozen of topics on dozen of different faked militaria items produced/sold by Mr. Floch.

With someone like Mr. Floch who is KNOWN to have flooded the market with fakes, it is more important to remember that proved fact than that Mr. Floch "has found more original German WWII militaria than any other person".

I smells a rat, you can smell what you want, but Mr. Floch is known to be a major faker. That's it. Facts.

See You

Vince

[kammo man]

re reading this thread gives me doubts that the believers in pink jackets are sane.



owen