"Pink" smock or not?

[90th Light]

I dont think the one shown in that period photo (left) is the pinki....to hard to tell and I think its just wishfull thinking. the construction of the examples we have seen and the contruction of the ones in this photo are totaly diferent....

Thanks for your reply Spanish Freiwillige,

equally the smock in the period photo could be a "Pink Smock". The reality is that the image is just not clear enough, hence why members were asking for a high resolution scan.

The construction of the two smocks is exact, if it is not then please explain what is different ???

This point regarding the construction, lays to rest what one member stated that the "Pink Smocks" are too small to fit someone today. As we can all clearly see in these comparative images, they are not. May-be some have shrunk due to washing. After all, they were found soiled, water damaged and rodent chewed. However as we can all see for ourselves, they fit and sit on someone today exactly as they did before May 1945. Thus another myth about them laid to rest.

Yes I agree we side tracked on the "type 2 SS camo" made from Italian camo. But lets look at how many period variation items were discovered and discussed over the length of those postings. Some of those items have never had a mention here on WAF. Where are all those non-text book SS smocks and caps in collections today ??? How many have been put in the rubbish bin or chopped up because they did not fit into the experience relm of the collector who may have stumbled across them. This is the whole point of this thread at the very least, to broaden horizons which the Italian SS items prove the need for.



Like you I too what objectivity in this matter not idealism. Thus I fully respect your posting and point of view.

I will round this posting off by summing up objectively what the last few postings have achieved;

Primary objective - we have "type 2 SS smocks" made of "pinki" camo for which we seek a clear beyond doubt period photo of such a smock before May 1945

Secondary objective - we have a beyond doubt period photo of a "type 2 SS smock" made of Italian camo for which we now seek such a smock still in existance today

Chris

Pete, thank you for correcting me when I had called it a museum stamp. My mistake in haste.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

I think the difference is where the arm joints are sewn together...I'm in a bit of a heist right now but will try to do a photo comparison to show what I mean later next week

do hope this conundrum is solved...I am eager to know if we have a new patterno or a post war European army issue or a replica.....

[90th Light]

I think the difference is where the arm joints are sewn together...I'm in a bit of a heist right now but will try to do a photo comparison to show what I mean later next week

do hope this conundrum is solved...I am eager to know if we have a new patterno or a post war European army issue or a replica.....

Thanks Spanish Freiwillige,

I will look forward to what you add next week when you have time.

Because I am a little confused by what you say. There are no arm joints at the shoulder on a "type 2 SS smock" ???

The front and back of a "type 2 SS smock" are one piece of cloth including the shoulder and upper sleeve. This cloth is the width of the bolt and can be no wider than the rollers which printed it. The join is down the sleeve below the elbow with period selvage at the end by the wrist.

Yes I agree, to solve this would be great,

Chris

[Salvatore L]

Gents, I just received a PM from Luis (Ciano), who happens to be the member that first published the WSS smocks picture on WAF. Sadly, he does not own the picture. In fact, after a quick search using google, I found the photo in a couple of sites without the watermark. However, the resolution is not much better. One of the websites have a ton of pictures and is in russian:

http://www.adamalla.com/showthread.php?t=1984&page=99

The other website apparently attributed the photo to the Bundesarchive:

http://www.histomil.com/viewtopic.ph...p=77806#p77767

Sal

[Spanish Freiwillige]

Ok guys...I will be objective as I can, in just what I see ok.., could be mistacken...so I will try to explain....this is what I see:

I meant different construction as I see in the period photo that the seam of there main body join with arm is shorter and in the pinki its longer, way below elbow level.....

or maybe its just a tear that has nothing to do with the joining of sections....I could be wrong...and construction is the same....

[Glenn McInnes]

Ok guys...I will be objective as I can, in just what I see ok.., could be mistacken...so I will try to explain....this is what I see:

I meant different construction as I see in the period photo that the seam of there main body join with arm is shorter and in the pinki its longer, way below elbow level.....

or maybe its just a tear that has nothing to do with the joining of sections....I could be wrong...and construction is the same....

No seam,the arm is torn and opened up.







Glenn

[Spanish Freiwillige]

No seam,the arm is torn and opened up.

Glenn

thanks Glenn..guess its now just to determine if the camo is the one we are talking about or not..!

[phild]

thanks Glenn..guess its now just to determine if the camo is the one we are talking about or not..!

I think that the main one being considered is the one being worn to the left of the one with the tear. The sleeve join on it can be detected (just barely) and it looks to be in the exact location at the seam on the pink smocks.....but other patterns are in the same area also.

The smock with the torn sleeve may be the same pattern as the one on the left. I can not tell for sure because it is very "washed" out in the photo, even so it is more clear than maybe 75% of the photos of SS smocks in wear that I have seen and that is why it does not mean very much to say that "I have never seen a photo" of this or that camo detail, therefore they did not exist.

[nutmeg]

Whether the existing smocks are small I can't say. However , many times small and large sizes remain in the warehouses because there is not as much need for them . So a batch of mint "pink" smocks all in a small size coming from a warehouse might be likely , especially since they would have been bundled by size.

[pete]

Anyone who is on the surplus scene as a buyer quickly also sees the same in modern day. Buy in bulk and often you end up with mint small and large sizes, which often are very hard to sell! One example, mint 1960s m65 jackets, worth alot now on ebay, or, uk Dpm.The warehouses are always blocked with Xl xxxl and xs, s. True story!

[pete]

.

I would add, of the many for example many 100% SS tunics we see today, at least what we see for sale, are usually anywhere from size 34-40 chest and we often see I think the smaller sizes 34 36 in mint or unissued condition in the same way as in modern clothing. Possibly people are "expecting" that the SS could/did maintain the standards of all supermen/tall giants throughout the whole war which we know they did not do when the standards dropped and they expanded. The Pink smock I had at one time was about a 170-180/104 UK size minimum, the height and size of a standard soldier today as well. Its a fact people were generally indeed slightly smaller in those days as well compared to us today though.


Regards,

Pete

[RobertE]

The one smock I currently own would fit a soldier with about a US 45" chest and suitably long in the arms. I agree with Pete and Nutmeg that German soldiers, SS and otherwise, were average sized based on surviving uniforms. These smocks would easily fit them.


The point about what stays warehoused (small and huge) is a good one as well. But I don't think most of these would have a problem going over any of the SS tunics I have seen or own.


s/f Robert

[cbuehler]

I too have been familiar with pink smocks ever since the 80's. As now,, some thought they were good, others not.
One aspect that never seems to be addressed is that these pink smocks are a disaster as far as camouflage effectiveness is concerned.
If I were issued one of these, it would have quickly found its way into the nearest garbage can as a distinct health hazard.
If they are ever proven to be of WW2 manufacture, which is unlikely, they may have all been rejects unfit for their intended use.


CB

[Mike C]

Nnlike helmet covers (sizes 1-3), smocks were of one size. The suggestion that only large or small smocks were unissued is a red herring (in my opinion) - an assessment supported by the complete absence of any size stamp on any smock. As a useful experiment, take any two standard smocks and compare them.

Mike

[RobertE]

One aspect that never seems to be addressed is that these pink smocks are a disaster as far as camouflage effectiveness is concerned.
CB

Please review the portion of the thread where I posted side-by-side pictures of one the smocks under discussion and an original SS zelt of the same pattern. The slight shade differences in no way negate the camouflage value of the smock pattern. It is as effective as any other SS pattern, as the photos show.

Mike, I have owned different sized specimens of these smocks. I have a large one now, others have small and I'm assuming there are ones in between. Unless we have examined several dozen (or hundred) of these, I don't think we should say these were not made in medium sizes.

Size markings - they may have existed and become faded, or were never in them to begin with. Did the types made in Italy and Norway have size stamps?

regards, Robert