"Pink" smock or not?

[salt*creek]

Please! Tell me what these guys are smoking!
Like I said before, try and sell one. They are fake and ugly.

[RobertE]

It must be frustrating for Phild, Palmenmuster, 90th, and others who have their cogent points of discussion dismissed with this prattle.

Since when does how attractive a piece is determine originality? Ugly, perhaps, but fake?

Besides riding the bandwagon, what have you contributed to this discussion beyond a regurgitated opinion?

I'm sure you know this, but every time someone posts their shot at humor in this thread, an email is sent to everyone subscribed to the thread. It is disappointing to open the email only to find another wit - but no meaningful evidence toward the discussion.

When this thread came back to life, I was hoping the newly-discovered stamps found in original garments that matched the stamps in these smocks were going to be addressed. Still waiting for the pictures showing those (exact) stamps in fake items, which was the entire reasoning behind dismissing them - according to the skeptics, these stamps have been around forever.

s/f Robert

[salt*creek]

The only frustrating thing that is going on here are people trying to convince themselves that they didn't get burned and making us read about it.

[RobertE]

You should add "in your opinion" to that last declarative statement.

[phild]

The only frustrating thing that is going on here are people trying to convince themselves that they didn't get burned and making us read about it.

That is not what is going here. I don't think that any of those posting and asking for a serious look at these feel that they got burned.....even if they are fake. It is not about the money, but the learning.

Those who continue to ignore these stamps and just insist that the smocks are fake are looking like idiots. I say this not as a derogatory personal insult toward anyone, but rather how flawed and emotional opinions are no substitue for objective analysis.

As for being ugly....that is subjective, but what is not subjective is that the camo colors and pattern is very effective on these.

It was also suggested to try and sell one.....I would submit for the last couple of years.....try to buy one! They are not easy to find for sale as of late.

[NickG]

It was also suggested to try and sell one.....I would submit for the last couple of years.....try to buy one! They are not easy to find for sale as of late.

There is one on estand right now in the Bazaar (fake) section for $750 for those who like gambling!

Honestly I am now more inclined to think that these have a chance being ligit.
Just an odd foreign made period variant, since the non-fake Russian captured inventory stamps put these in the right time frame and the HBT pocket liners have been proven to be real material.

"It has to be wrong because it is different from the norm" (standard) is just not a good explanation to me...
If these were indeed post war made fakes these would have been made in a shade more in line with the standard to fool collectors...
this pink shade is just too obvious for these to be an attempt to counterfeit!

[NZMark]

Meanwhile, the estand example has already sold...
And still - these basic questions I asked way back on page three (post #37) have still not been answered...
1 - IF these are reproductions, made to fool and confuse collectors (as they have for nearly thirty years) so well made, so well copied with such a magnificent pattern etc etc - where are the new generation fakes that rectified the failings of this one? (None have flooded the market, have they?)
2 - Why has only a limited number appeared on the market?
3 - Why go so far with the accuracy and screw up the colour match to known examples? (Let's face it - whoever made these one's was a stickler for detail).
4 - Who made these reproductions - and where did they disappear to, because if you are on to a good thing, why give up?
Interesting discussion when emotions are kept in restraint.
Mark
New Zealand

[WEISNER]

this pink shade is just too obvious for these to be an attempt to counterfeit!

This has always been a big question mark for me also Nick, seems using this shade would be a big no no for any faker?

Kevin

[90th Light]

Chris
You are living in a dream world
Owen

Wrong again Owen,

I am not the one on television living the American dream. That is your lot in life;

"L.a. is a great big freeway.
Put a hundred down and buy a car.
In a week, maybe two, they'll make you a star
Weeks turn into years. how quck they pass
And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas"


I live in "God's own", the land of milk and honey where a humble collector gets to meet the daughter of a Waffen SS general whose husband fought along side Estonian SS in Czechoslovakia and recognises the "Pink smock" for what it really is.

No dream or dreaming on my part, it really happened. Go read Hilga's book for yourself or watch the documentry. You might learn something you did not know about that time in history.

Chris


( "The true story of Helga Tiscenko – she was 16 when her father, a Nazi General, was executed for war crimes.

Caught up in the confusion of the final days of the Third Reich and fleeing the Allied advance, she barely escapes with her life.

Helga starts a new life in post-war New Zealand with her Russian husband, keeping her past a secret. 60 years on she begins to reveal her family’s traumatic history to documentary maker Amy O´Connor.

Strawberries with the Führer is a rare opportunity to hear wartime stories from a German New Zealander whose father was one of Hitler’s Generals, and to assess the effects on the next generations.

Documentary maker Amy O’Connor takes up the story and travels to Germany to discover for herself this family’s legacy. In Germany a veil of silence is still drawn across Hitler’s shameful legacy. " )

[90th Light]

Meanwhile, the estand example has already sold...
And still - these basic questions I asked way back on page three (post #37) have still not been answered...
1 - IF these are reproductions, made to fool and confuse collectors (as they have for nearly thirty years) so well made, so well copied with such a magnificent pattern etc etc - where are the new generation fakes that rectified the failings of this one? (None have flooded the market, have they?)
2 - Why has only a limited number appeared on the market?
3 - Why go so far with the accuracy and screw up the colour match to known examples? (Let's face it - whoever made these one's was a stickler for detail).
4 - Who made these reproductions - and where did they disappear to, because if you are on to a good thing, why give up?
Interesting discussion when emotions are kept in restraint.
Mark
New Zealand

Hello Mark,

and as "phild" has already point out, there was no money in it for them given what these smocks were selling for in the 1980's.

All that work, effort, blood, sweat and tears . Yet money is not the motivating factor.......................... so what was ???

May be the need to fight the Russian army and for the freedom of one's homeland

Chris

[Fritz]

Fritz, I agree you will find German Zelts with added corners, I believe these are made of cut-offs to make shure they didnt waste any fabric.

Absolutely NO. They were making/using narrow material, too narrow for regular zelt production. It has nothing to do with left overs from any other production.

This information, really more revelation, is very germane to the discussion of the mis-named pink smock.

I am amazed to see so much ado about the fact that foreign countries worked and produced for the germans, this is yesterday's news and had been mentioned in this thread here already, so it is by no means a "revelation".

Nobody ever denied that, what I am denying is that these smocks were made during the war by or for the germans. So those who like these smocks shouldn't present these old news as if they have gained ground now. In fact you are charging an open door and present the result of that action as a huge success.



It is certainly not any "proof" for that these smocks are authentic, yet again it is an(other) attempt of an explanation for why they are so abnormal.

The good news for you is that you can't ever run out of "explanations" of that quality.

He said someone said he knows somone who said these smocks are good since he remembers the color. That "explanation", for instance, will be hard to refute should it ever be given here.


Cheers

[HERMSDORF]

A Pros pos Zeltbahns.......

...In Fact, they used 1944 captured Italian Cloth (unprinted) which Machine Width is smaller, so it was necessary to ad these Edges

Best Regards

Andy

[phild]

Meanwhile, the estand example has already sold...
And still - these basic questions I asked way back on page three (post #37) have still not been answered...
1 - IF these are reproductions, made to fool and confuse collectors (as they have for nearly thirty years) so well made, so well copied with such a magnificent pattern etc etc - where are the new generation fakes that rectified the failings of this one? (None have flooded the market, have they?)
2 - Why has only a limited number appeared on the market?
3 - Why go so far with the accuracy and screw up the colour match to known examples? (Let's face it - whoever made these one's was a stickler for detail).
4 - Who made these reproductions - and where did they disappear to, because if you are on to a good thing, why give up?
Interesting discussion when emotions are kept in restraint.
Mark
New Zealand

All good points and questions, but for me number 3 is they key one.

The detail of construction (and I could list about 20 specific characteristics....in fact every detail maps back to the German construction....many of which the Germans did not always follow on their own produced SS smocks) is what convinced me back in 81 that these were not movie props....impossible at that time that a prop would have been made like this. The colors are different....but in some respects an improvement over the German versions.....which differed in colors and shades with every version themselves.

I wonder if anyone can find any true pink color in one these? I mean a RAL no kidding pink? I can not. I can find plenty in the brushed cotton 4 pocket dot pattern SS sets however.

I would highly encourage everyone to take a careful look at the photos posted of the one sold in the Bazaar section. The photos are the best that I have ever seen...great job! If this is a fake "done" in the late 70s or earlier I need another hobby! Notice the hand sewn lace eyelets, the pocket flaps constructed at a different work station with the heavy green thread.....but attached to the body with the "regular" thread. Notice the double needle seams (some have said NEVER seen on any repro until the very recent repros) we have a total of 14 (not 10 as I wrote earlier) sets of 3 camo loops....each set with the center stitich row.......but some of these have turned up with that center omitted...just like the German production both included it and omitted it. Notice the detail of the arm vents and the age of the cotton thread in the close ups......they are over the top for a mass produced fake....just crazy the way that these have been dismissed. $750 is 5 cents on the dollar for a real SS smock....but it is about 3X what a correct colored repro could be found for.....I'll say that I think that the buyer did very well.

Fritz,

Why has the Norwegian produced oakleaf never been addresed until Tom posted it? I mean a different repeat pattern, different width and different fabric (than the German) are the basis for saying that the "pink" smocks can be period.....but the Norwegian produced material clearly is period as are the parkas. I do know that when it was suggested about 10 years ago on this forum that the Germans may have comissioned some camo fabric production in occupied countries and that this would have almost certainly have differed somewhat from the German sourced material.....well it got a lot of laughs and dismissals by quite a few.

[Thorsten B.]

A worthful discussion!

Too bad I missed the offered smock in the E-stand.

What a bargain!!

[Dennis S]

Dis someone save the photos from estand to post , would be interesting.