"Pink" smock or not?

[NickG]

I have never had a problem with the 'pink' smocks. Some don't believe them, some do.

bought out of the same pile, from Johannes Floch, back in the early 1980s, if my memory is correct.

Bob Hritz

I read somewhere that Floch had bales and bales of these pink smocks (several 1000 or so) which were found in Czechoslovakia in the (late?) 1970's... so I was assuming if indeed real (not movie props too many were found),
therefor a Czech manufacturing connection...So post war Czech Army contract? (but no pictures exist, no Czech army markings...so can't be the case), therefor a war time Czech-made contract for the SS.
(like Czech manufactured SS italian camo parkas, SS sahariana's) ...or just plain fake...

but now possibly a Baltic Estonian production theory?
I guess these could have still ended up in the occupied Czech region of which much of the industry was controlled by the SS...
a distribution point (a depot find by Floch) and perhaps very late war time made and never distributed, hence the unused condition? explaining why no period photos have surfaced to date...

I would not mind now owning one, now that there is a glimmer of hope that these might be ligit after all...
Interesting thread this has become!

[Fritz]

NOBODY seems to have the authority to doom them as fakes that easily.

That might explain why - with respect - when it comes to simply pay attention to what I said and asked you about these smocks - why you think they "have to be" fakes and bad and worthless(!) - you turn it around and focus on me.

Not on the smocks.

Why is that?

Thorsten:

But you have the authority to declare them good? Or to question my opinion, or Owen's opinion? Upon what grounds? So far I didn't know you as someone who has even a remote knowledge of ss camo. But please surprise me by presenting some thought through theses...So far your posts here have been entirely hollow.

Focus on you? A bit narcissistic, aren't you? It seems you are, again, overestimating your importance in this thread. It is you who provides absolutely no information in either direction. You just want to appear like you had a clue when it comes to ss camo - But you haven't and that's not a secret.

I paid attention very well to what you said and that is why I was so kind to re-post the list. Then some posts later I also paid attention to how you said things and eventhough that was pretty bold be assured I will certainly not focus on you.

Cheers

[Fritz]

I read somewhere that Floch had bales and bales of these pink smocks (several 1000 or so) which were found in Czechoslovakia in the (late?) 1970's... so I was assuming if indeed real (not movie props too many were found),
therefor a Czech manufacturing connection...So post war Czech Army contract? (but no pictures exist, no Czech army markings...so can't be the case), therefor a war time Czech-made contract for the SS.
(like Czech manufactured SS italian camo parkas, SS sahariana's) ...or just plain fake...

but now possibly a Baltic Estonian production theory?
I guess these could have still ended up in the occupied Czech region of which much of the industry was controlled by the SS...
a distribution point (a depot find) and perhaps very late war time made and never distributed, hance the unused condition? explaining why no period photos have surfaced to date...

I would not mind now owning one, now that there is a glimmer of hope that these might be ligit after all...
Interesting thread this has become!

Nick:

That had all been addressed before, smock production was officially discontinued when the dot pattern uniform had been introduced. So it is highly unlikely that 1000s of FIRST pattern M42 smocks would remain stocked for two and a half years without issuing just one of them.

First the czech region, now the baltic states, what's next?

I have no problem with people liking these smocks, yet I think they are not original and want people to be aware of the fact that numerous collectors (including me) don't like them.

But we are going round in circles here. Perhaps a new thread should be opened with the "pros and cons" as this thread here has become very hard to follow up.

Cheers

[Thorsten B.]

...be assured I will certainly not focus on you.

That is a step in the right direction - so now back to the smocks, please.

In my opinion the visible stamps are key to their history and age - and taking that into account I see no evidence calling these type of smocks fake anymore.

[Fritz]

In my opinion the visible stamps are key to their history and age - and taking that into account I see no evidence calling these type of smocks fake anymore.

Thorsten:

In today's collecting stamps mean little to nothing. These museum and studio stamps are being faked since decades. If people can fake euro and dollar notes I think a stamp can't be too hard to fake and in addition to that I am sure the original stamps were just as available as were original items (such as bill shea's smock).

I would also not be surprised to find such stamps in original afghan war era items etc..

These are some of the reasons why no stamp will ever impress me much.

Cheers

[NickG]

Nick:

That had all been addressed before, smock production was officially discontinued when the dot pattern uniform had been introduced. So it is highly unlikely that 1000s of FIRST pattern M42 smocks would remain stocked for two and a half years without issuing just one of them.

Cheers

Good point...late war made but early type uncirculated would be a problematic issue...So possibly mid war foreign made (using the first pattern) and remained in storage and unissued because the Dot 44 replaced these... (lost in a ware house?)

I doubt that these stamps were added as counterfeit markings if done 30-35 years agos, back than there was less knowledge, no internet...less sophisticated world, so no need for trickery ...recently added is a different story of course...

[Thorsten B.]

I would also not be surprised to find such stamps in original afghan war era items etc..

So you also do not doubt that the stamps on these smocks are of soviet period origin - do I get that right?

[RobertE]

I would suggest that just because we have not determined they were issued, doesn't mean they weren't. These could have been issued by the thousands - a drop in the bucket when you are talking entire SS battalions being destroyed or taken into captivity in the east.

Many, many variants will not show up in photos, especially later in the war. SS correspondents and members took lots of photos, but every variant or shorter run batch will not appear in photographs.

These could be fake, or original. I don't agree stamps mean nothing just because stampings are faked. For example, they have been replicated in tunics for some time, yet collectors continue to circle back to those markings and discuss them by font, style, placement, and so on.

I would add that even with numerous examples to replicate, the fakers blew it any number of times when adding markings. I think that this latest discovery is noteworthy because the markings are dead on, for both the film studio and inventory markings. Since the markings in these smocks are at least 30 years old based on their appearance in collectors hands (60 years if you accept the museum dating), then I think it's remarkable the fakers would have nailed it with these markings the first time.

regards, Robert

[Fritz]

Good point...late war made but early type uncirculated would be a problematic issue...So possibly mid war foreign made (using the first pattern) and remained in storage and unissued because the Dot 44 replaced these... (lost in a ware house?)

Smocks were issued after the dot uniform had been introduced as long as stocks lasted but they didn't last long. You just don't forget a "stock of 1000s of smocks" when you are struggling to equip your divisions.

The dot uniform was also introduced because of the demands for raw materials in cotton duck production couldn't be met anymore. Cotton duck (low quality) was in the end limited to zelts and helmet covers. After some testing with various textiles (incl. even wool) HBT apparently was thought to be the right soloution for the ss' future camouflage uniform demands.

I, for one, don't buy the theory of a dead or conquered stock. If you look at photos showing raw recruits or refreshed units in 1944 the vast majority of the "new faces" wore dot uniforms. All sorts of smocks were common in units that were raised in 43 or earlier but even these already had a high percentage of dot uniforms in 44.

IMO the last big stocks went into the 9th,10th and 12th SS in 1943, after that camo items weren't stocked for long but rather pumped right into the barracks and supply units of the ever growing SS.

A late war ss report tells us that the only thing readily available were tropical uniforms.

BTW where are the stocks of 1000s of Leibermuster uniforms, or late war jump smocks, field division smocks....dot uniforms? I would believe those to be more likely than a smock in a 42/43 design.

Cheers

[Fritz]

So you also do not doubt that the stamps on these smocks are of soviet period origin - do I get that right?

I would rather say, as I did many times before in this thread, that I don't doubt the existence of such stamps (in original items as well as fakes).

[Thorsten B.]

I would rather say, as I did many times before in this thread, that I don't doubt the existence of such stamps (in original items as well as fakes).

Well, that´s fine for me.

So you say: "..I don´t doubt the existence of such stamps (in original items as well as fakes)."

That indicates that you are aware of original and fake stamps.

So how can you tell by looking at these stamps whether they are original or fake?

So finally how about the shown stamps here?

[90th Light]

Nick:

First the czech region, now the baltic states, what's next?

Cheers

Hello again Fritz,

do you know your history of the various SS divisions or not ???

Almost every Estonian SS who got out to the West and survived was fighting in the Czech region in 1945. What was left of the Estonian division fully retreated into there and took everything they could with them into that region;


"Eventually, the reformed division, which numbered roughly 11,000 Estonians and 2,500 Germans, returned to the front line in late February, just in time for the Soviet Vistula-Oder Offensive.[citation needed] This offensive forced the German forces back behind the Oder and Neisse rivers. The division was pushed back to the Neisse, taking heavy casualties. The division was then trapped with the XI. Armeekorps in the Oberglogau - Friedberg area in Silesia. On 17 March 1945, the division launched a major escape attempt, which despite making headway, failed. On 19 March, the division tried again, this time succeeding, but leaving all heavy weapons and equipment behind in the pocket.[16]

In April, the remnants of the division were moved south to the area around Goldberg. After the Prague Offensive, the division attempted to break out to the west, in order to surrender to the western Allies.[13] The local Czech population resumed their hostilities on the surrendered Estonian troops regardless of their intentions. In what veterans of the Estonian Division who had laid their weapons down in May 1945 recall as the 'Czech Hell', the local people chased, tortured and humiliated the Waffen SS men and murdered more than 500 Estonian POWs.[11][17][18] Some of the Estonians who had reached the western allies were handed back to the Soviets.[13]"


Now please argue away how real history is far fetched and the Baltic/ Czech connection is a stretch of the imagination ,

Chris

[blamers]

Well Fritz,

let's explain which pattern of SS camo these guys are wearing.

In fact where is the pattern ? They are wearing a "blank/ neutral" pattern so who are they ?

Could take some explaining,

Chris

On this pic. I don't see a round corner on the hook plate cover.....is this for real or do also exist hookplates for the cover with sharp corners ??

[phild]

I want to state some things that I believe are facts in order to address some things written in the last 10-15 posts.

1. When these smocks were introduced in Germany/Austria (circa 1980) the best and really only claims as to how many were in the batch would number a couple of hundred maximuim (some say many dozens). I don't think there has ever been an exact count, but several witnesses that I have heard from put the estimate at maybe a couple of hundred. For what it is worth the number that I saw in Germany from 1981-the mid 1980s may have been a dozen or so max....so I reject that thousands were found and I doubt that that many were even made during the war.

2. I agree with Robert E that we have no evidence that none were issued....I believe that many were, but finding photos of many SS units from the last year or two of the war can be difficult...and telling what pattern smock that they are wearing near impossible unless there is a large number of photos from that unit taken by professional photographers.

3. The word in Germany when these came in is that they originated in the "East", others said CZ as well. The problem is the route that the passed through and where they actually originated is not neccessarily the same. If Floch worked a deal with a contact in the Soviet museum system in the late 70s-1980 for these smocks I doubt that he would reveal that to many (any?) people back in those days for many obvious reasons.

4. Somehow the issue about these being made in say 1942 and not being issued for 2 1/2 years seems to be a real hurdle for some to get over. I do not know what year they were made, only that they were BASED on a Type 2 first variation pattern. the acutal production may not have occured until mid to late 1943 or even later. I think that it is very easy to believe that they would not have reached the SS supply system until late 43 or even early 44 if they were started in production around mid to late 43.

Read the history of the formation of the Estonian SS"brigade"....and you will see how and why a thousand (or so) smocks would have been enough for the intial uniforming of the actual combat soldiers.....several hundred left in reserve is not un-common based on reports that I have seen from divisions on reserve stocks of uniforms and equipment. Maybe 1500 plus or minus of these were made....until the material ran out.

The markings are not and were not faked in these.....end of story for those who saw these in the early 1980s.

I can and will personally attest to the origin of the smock used for the markings photograph posted by Pete. I know where that smock with those markings came from in 1981.

[Fritz]

Well, that´s fine for me.

So you say: "..I don´t doubt the existence of such stamps (in original items as well as fakes)."

That indicates that you are aware of original and fake stamps.

So how can you tell by looking at these stamps whether they are original or fake?

So finally how about the shown stamps here?

You are putting the cart before the horse here. The most important question is: Is that smock real? And I say, no, it isn't. Could an original stamp have been applied? Yes. Could a fake stamp have been applied? Yes. We are not talking about a wartime maker's stamp here but rather a stamp that I suspect was well in use long after the war.

The stamp question is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. It is like taking an SM wholesale reproduction and put such a stamp in there, it willl still be a rerpro.