"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

In recent days some further information has come forward, that is very interesting. Leroys report about Flochs comments of today, when he has nothing to loose on telling the truth, because the smock has been "considered" fake for some years, is telling. Quite interesting.

The other report about these smocks being tracked down to Lenfilm is also interesting. Old hersay some might say, but it is atleast as valid as other rumours about this smock being an Austrian made fake, or a British made fake. The both latter are hearsay without a question.
Certainly worthy of further investigation. If they indeed can be tracked down to old Lenfilm stocks as early as 1947 that makes a very strong case.

Ok, it is known that the burden of prof lies with the one claiming an item is original. We know that.

I have always kept a neutral opinion about these, but certainly the recent info points in the direction of the positive kind.

Many has contributed, and given good arguments from both sides. Though I feel Phild's arguments are a bit hard to shoot a hole in just like that. Petes contribution with stamps is also interesting.

Heavy weight camo experts ( I mean knowledge wise ) like Kammo man and Fritz certainly has very valuable comments that can not be neglected (and should never be because of their top level knowledge) But what about if this is a different smock and cant really be compared with the ones that are known originals? I am not the devils lawyer, but just food for thought.

If we have come so far that a chemical test is the only way, is hard to say. The fact that you dont know what to compare with makes it very hard to use. What will such a test actually say? How should it be interpreted?

Cheers and thanks
//Felix

Felix, this is exactly the type of introspective approach we should be taking - thank you. The new information (not evidence, mind you) needs to be considered. I like the objective way you counsel on just considering the possibility these could be real, and I think that's all any of the advocates are asking for.

Leroy's unbiased discussions with dealer/collectors that have direct knowledge of how these smocks made it to the west is very interesting. It is certainly valid information to consider.

regards, Robert

[Massimo F.]

A pink is like a fart when compared to a Hand Screened 1-2 over print

owen

if the fart is loud enough can distract you from looking for the right elements to consider in a WWII manufactured garment...

[phild]

if the fart is loud enough can distract you from looking for the right elements to consider in a WWII manufactured garment...

Not the way I would have said it, but your point is undeniable!




"Originally Posted by kammo man
A pink is like a fart when compared to a Hand Screened 1-2 over print

owen"

As for the above statement...of course that is true...is it would be if HBT smock or even roller print standard accepted was substituted in the space above where "pink" is written

Bottom line however is that the pink smocks from a utility standpoint (meaning effective camo and durability) were at least somewhere in the middle of the entire range of SS smocks made during the period.....


I little change in direction here, but it amazes me that more people who must own an example of one of these have not participated in this thread. I know that there have to be many dozens of these out there if not hundreds that bear stamps or signs of former stamps in the pockets....we have only had one or two of those examples posted here over the last 10 years or so.

I saw many examples of this (stamps) in these back in the early 80s

[kammo man]

As they say in Monty Python.

" I will fart in your general direction"

with a really bag French accent.

owen

[kammo man]

Philid,

The "pinkies" are made WAY better that any wartime Pullover I have ever seen hands down.


The pre war examples are better made.

The reason one one has posted ...maybe is because NO ONE CARES .......

Pay for the test and amaze us please for the love of jesus..

[blamers]

Fact.

That's a fact.

Original SS camouflage garments just talk to you if they are real. Nothing more to say.
When you own one ., or felt the originals you know.

Felix ,
Nice thoughtful response.
Very well worded.


I personally feel there is NO need for the test but other members are calling for it.

Lets play both sides here.

Option 1 .

The test is done and it comes back the cotton was "picked" in the summer of 1943 to make the jackets .......
And the dye was mixed in 1944.
The thread was made in 1941.
The linen in the pockets was 43.
Ink on stamps made in 45.

well its a case closed No brainer. the jacket is WWII manufacture.

Option 2 .


The test comes back that the cotton was "picked" in the summer of 1976.
The dye was mixed in 1978.
The thread was made in 1971.
The linen in the pockets was 1969.
Ink on stamps made in1977.

Case closed no brainer the jacket is a ground up fake made to fool collectors .

Its a roll of the dice ..............

Like I said before the "pinkies " holds very little in common with a war time made garment .they are just to cookie cutter for me.
Real garments all have a very rushed feel to them.
As do most utilitarian war time uniform items.

And still there are the helmet covers in this pattern that are way worse than the "Italian" knockoffs of late.

Oh and one more thing ..........

Original SS camouflage garments just talk to you if they are real.
A pink is like a fart when compared to a Hand Screened 1-2 over print with mis- matched arms .....winter cammo loops sewn on the summer side , with matched buttons on both sides in both tan and green colors complete with it original string.

something I have never seen on a "pinkie".

owen

[RobertE]

"The "pinkies" are made WAY better that any wartime Pullover I have ever seen hands down."

They are not made better than my army sniper smock, winter camo garments, camo aprons, and other clothing items. No better, no worse, pre-war stuff aside.

"The pre war examples are better made."

Concur.

"The reason one one has posted ...maybe is because NO ONE CARES ......."

Don't speak collectively for everyone, Owen. You may have lost interest, but with 29,300+ views, this topic is of interest to others.

"Pay for the test and amaze us please for the love of jesus..[/QUOTE]"

I don't think Phild wants to tear apart what he and others believe may be a real smock so that it can be tested. He already said this is part of the dilema. But if you'll provide one of yours to be broken down into it's basic parts for testing, then I will donate mine to the study so they may be compared.

[billmunny]

Floch

Floch still has 500 of these?!?

[phild]

[QUOTE=kammo man;5539364]Philid,

The "pinkies" are made WAY better that any wartime Pullover I have ever seen hands down.

The pre war examples are better made.


Owen, the pink smocks were not made in the same facility(s) as the German wartime smocks. That we can agree on regardless of if they are wartime or post war. Although some on this forum may disagree (or in fact do disagree) with the following, I have it from a period account that at least some of the German made SS smocks (not the fabric itself) were sewn in Ravensbruk KZ related clothing "factories". It is not unusual to find contract German uniforms that were made both in and outside of Germany by commercial concerns to be made to a bit higher standard than KZ made items...it could work both ways I know, but generally pressures of production were less on foreign contract items.

The reason one one has posted ...maybe is because NO ONE CARES .......

If we judged from that actual posts that may be true, but there maybe 8-10 separate threads on this forum about these smocks since 2002-2004 timeframe and when the hits are looked at across most all of those threads they tend to be some of the most looked at on the SS uniform board.



Pay for the test and amaze us please for the love of jesus..[/QUOTE]

I will look into this and post if I can proceed. Just so that I am on the record I state now that even if the test would show no post war "profile" in any material or dye and it it showed in fact some contents that were not used after the war...it still would not change the public position of those who have refused to consider these. If the stamps don't open people's eyes all wartime materials will not either.

[Felix]

I have a small piece of a pink smock, 2 x 1 cm that I found loose in a pink smock.

But what can these tests tell us? We will have to compare with real war time colours if we can? Maybe they are close, but not a match. Where does that leave us? How to separate war time dye chemicals from post war? Surely there was a variety of colours used war time that was also used post war. I dont think it will be easy to tell and to use. Maybe others can fill in? I know there was a discussion about that topic before. But just how easy is that?

Cheers
//Felix

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

please note that we don't have any proof that

- the Lenfilm uniforms they had in 1947 are the ones we are talking about.

- Lenfilm didn't had in the 70's or more recently other uniforms that may have been repros or postwar items.

Showing a picture of a dot pattern jacket that 99,99 % of the population AND the militaria community can't even identify as real/fake to an old man of a russian movie company is clearly not a proof. It is an interesting lead, but this like saying : "escargots have horns, cows have horns, escargots are cows".

See You

Vince

[pete]

.

Whether they did or not, the stamps on the surviving smocks with stamps (only an inked out example so far from an unknown studio or museum...and references as we read to a Lenfilm stamped example) resemble those in other items, maybe each stamp can have small differences. In addition the smocks have a triangle and circle stamp seen in other accepted SS camo, dot 44 pants for example. So, at least what i think is that regardless of the camo and if they made a mistake the stamps at least indicate these smocks were somewhere similar if not the same as the real dot pants, and likely before the film studio or museum. So as no other items from the film studios have the triangle and circle, i would bet that is actually an MOD marking (like they describe these came from MOD in 1947). You can see what i am getting at, at least my opinion. For a long time we had no way to even put them somewhere at some time. Now at least it seems we have verbal info (as we did not go further yet to reconfirm with Lenfilm) and we have stamps also seen in other items that are known good, and, other stamps very similar (not exact) in design in other known good items, like the SS M43 on the collectors guild, as well as alot of other film stamps all blacked out in the same fashion. We also heard here from the Lenfilm account how they traded items around, or exchanged items etc, borrowed items and inked out the old markings often, so that is also historically consistent with stamps we see in all sorts of items, which we know are good. Of course fakers have started also playing around with that too but that is different. A bit of a ramble but its just one point that we had no chance to dissect before, and totally apart from materials. For years we were stuck on materials alone to talk about but at least we have afew more bits now to talk about too.


Pete

[90th Light]

This is an interesting thread which does not help us one bit http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...atvian+mittens

Except that German veterans have told me me that the "pink smocks" are pre -May 1945 manufacture made in Estonia or Latvia. They cetainly made some interesting things in interesting colours that is for sure

For what it is worth in all this,

Chris

[Felix]

Perhaps of interest

Perhaps this photo might be of interest.
Here is the link to the sale on Ruptured Duck site. As far as I can see these stamps are the same as the ones on the Pink smocks...
http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPa...forms/u067.htm

Also interesting that the stamp is crossed over on the palm tree smock and some parts are blacked out. Text is also blacked out on the pink's stamp and most stamps are cut away...

Not taking side but it is a bit interesting....

Cheers
//Felix

[kammo man]

"Pink" smock or not?

Nice real Cammo jacket in every way
The stamps are great to see also