"Pink" smock or not?

[Arran]

The truth can be found in the elastic used in these smocks...

[90th Light]

The truth can be found in the elastic used in these smocks...

Several have been pulled to pieces and they have found the correct wartime elastic used in the manufacturing of them. Who ever made them got it right in more ways than one. The question is when did they make them ???


The problem with this however is that the production of SS smocks was definitely over by May 1945 but not the production of elastic like that. If they could still make it and had not been bomb to kingdom come or had all their machines & tools taken as war booty then this is how they kept making elastic in Germany/ Europe up to the 1950's.

Its those damn "Pink", "Birch A" Smocks again and again but who & when

Chris

[pete]

.

Lets see a lab test on the dyes and chemical makeup of other parts and show it either way because we can chase each other around the barrel for ever with this disscussing the visual construction details. I personally dont beleive they are period but I still want to know who made them or at least when. Other thing is if a lab comes back and says that dye IS real ww2 period based on knowns from the timeline of dyes since ww2 what then? I think many people are "happy" by lack of responses to my constant thread response and idea to test these not knowing but at the instant that basic info was published these would be listed on sites quoting that and smocks would sell higher or people to scramble to buy or get back! On the other hand if the test showed thiss mock could have only been related to a late 50s dye that did not exist till then based on known and accepted/published fabric dye technology advances, what then?

There are people here with the connections to get this done, lets do it


Best,

Pete

[Felix]

Lets see a lab test on the dyes and chemical makeup of other parts and show it either way because we can chase each other around the barrel for ever with this disscussing the visual construction details. I personally dont beleive they are period but I still want to know who made them or at least when. Other thing is if a lab comes back and says that dye IS real ww2 period based on knowns from the timeline of dyes since ww2 what then? I think many people are "happy" by lack of responses to my constant thread response and idea to test these not knowing but at the instant that basic info was published these would be listed on sites quoting that and smocks would sell higher or people to scramble to buy or get back! On the other hand if the test showed thiss mock could have only been related to a late 50s dye that did not exist till then based on known and accepted/published fabric dye technology advances, what then?

There are people here with the connections to get this done, lets do it


Best,

Pete

It would also be wise to ask Mr Floch more precisely about the story and how they came into the west around 1980.
Its also a possibility to address the question to knowledgeable museum staff in the Czech republic or some one in the Czech military. (or Slovakia or other EE countries) If its a post war manufacture for an east European army some one must know about them.

Out of curiosity after reading the threads here I actually bought one of these smocks. I just had to see one of these pieces and handle in real life and compare to my original plane tree smock.

As complementary info, and I dont think I have to state that, I REALLY hate fakes but in this case I was just too curious.

[pete]

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Until there is a TEST done graded scientifically (i.e with knowns) against something KNOWN (and i dont mean only another smock, I mean known chemical make ups of dyes), we can disscuss construction details forever and this will still be a thread in 10 years. There are people who have the knowledge and experience who say these are not good smocks, for example people who have been handling many camo items for many years then we have the design similiarities to originals etc. ALL of those people can logically only investigate this to ONLY a certain level scientifically. In the end we still have no proof or a solid source about info on these....pause......that is why I constantly point to the KNOWN technology of dyes which CAN be dated. I should certianly hope if someone does this test they will not keep it quiet and quietly snap up many smocks if the dye turned out to be ww2.



Best,

Pete

[Fritz]

if the dye turned out to be ww2.

This wouldn't really mean a lot, when these smocks were made somewhen "shortly" after the war the dyes will be pretty much the same as far as components are concerned.

Such a test could only work one way when you are after a definitive conclusion, that means if the test detects postwar components it is 100% a postwar piece, if it doesn't then that is not a proof that these smocks are of wartime production.


Cheers

Fritz

[Palmenmuster]

As stated in earier thread, I will try to get the National Crime Laboratrie in Norway to do the tests, as you all know, they have long days and I will have to get one on the lab to do this after work. Anyway, Im working to solve the problem but from the previous posts here, it will probably end up like a "Catch 22" whatever the lab test will conclude.

Best regards, Tom

[pete]

.

I for one am looking forward to any scientific testing that can be done on these. The findings if linked properly to known timelines, for example known technology of dyes, would certianly give an indication of production time period better then carbon dating can provide for example. if the items were made from pure dyes which only existed in ww2 period then that will give a better indication of age. If they are related to a type of dye only possible past 1950 then we also know a better indication of age.

Either way, i suggest the person responsible for such a test be named for the test in future reference in all publications for example on the subject for their efforts. There would also be a certain amount of duty of care with any findings to cutt of (i will say it again) any persons who will misuse and capatilize on this knowledge (we know they are out there) so as to be fair for all. READ: using the results of any such to "authenticate" smocks if they should turn out to be a questionable dye. Questionable means questionable.



Best,

Pete

[90th Light]

I do not know if the dye testing is going to help us with these Birchy Pinkos.

The Germans were away ahead of the rest of the world in dye technology before WW2. SS smocks in general are an example of just how advanced they had become. When Germany was occupied in 1945, the Allies got their hands on German records, German patents and German Scientists. The rest of the world caught up. In other words how the Germans made dye in the 1930's is how the whole world was making it by the 1950's and by the 1960's every one had it. This is one of the reasons why we got the "fab 60's" and all those groovy fab colors. German dye technology and color break throughs of the 1930's to make SS camo clothing. High technology for its time.

All a lab test is going to show is dyes which came into being from the 1930's and are still in use today. I will be surprised if it shows otherwise unless of course it shows something only in existence since WW2 ??? For that type of cotton duck however there are not too many new ways to color it. If it was synthetic then the case would be different or trying to make cotton look and feel like a synthetic.

Will be interesting, Chris

[pete]

.

I am looking forward to the results myself! Who knows! But at least it is somthing that can be pointed towards a known.




Best,

Pete

[ebony]

photos for 90thlight

[ebony]

no2

[besslein]

no2

hey
this thread is abaut pink camo smocks
by the way the insignia are resewn on your tunic

[90th Light]

hey
this thread is abaut pink camo smocks
by the way the insignia are resewn on your tunic

Hello besslein,

you are right the insignia is re-sewn but this probably took place at "Ravensbruck" when the whole tunic was refurbished. I asked ebony to post these close up shots of the collar tabs because I have had a couple of emails asking to see more.

This was in-response to our posting some images of this tunic in connection with the discussion regarding what was made at "Ravensbruk" along with the smocks they made. There was a recollection of a book where women made pockets for smocks but she also mentioned the horrible job of sorting the battle worn tunics which had come in for recycling or rebuilding. This is such a tunic. My guess is that all the original insignia was removed and the later war bevo items added to create a cleaner look at the time when it was re-issued.

The discussion which has taken place about the construction details of the "Pink" smocks and how accurate they are is a useful one. They match exactly the construction techniques that were being used in places like Ravensbruck at the time. We will probably never know for sure if the Pink smocks were actually made there but seeing as we have brought up Ravensbruck manufacturing and just how bad it got, I thought others might like to see such a tunic.

As far as "Pink" smocks go, well hard to say for sure one way or the other but it is interesting to note that the prices of such smocks is rising. I suppose this reflects the two edge sword that they are, your chance to have the finest most accurate (apart from the color/pattern) reproduction ever made or your chance to get an original smock at a fraction of the price before someone finally finds that critical photo or piece of evidence to confirm that they are in fact period.
The pattern of course is now being identified as "Birch A" which is one more thing going for them when you think about it.

Either way "Pink" smocks will live on in the history of collecting SS Militaria and even if they are still viewed as fake will continue to appreciate in value because they are now so well known, discussed and debated. Plus they have the quality factor. We see examples of such fakes in the art world which often go on to become valuable, sort after items in their own right.

Personally, I do not think we will ever come to a conclusion but it is worth having one at the end of the day because they are a lot of fun to study. You spend just as much time looking at one of these as you do for a known $5000+ original but the "Pink" smock only gets the back corner/cupboard of the collecting room and not the premier cabinet.

Hope this explains, Chris

[kammo man]

Pink smock

I have been reading this thread with much amusement.
Guys these pink smocks are FAKE .
Get it , they are not good.
And now you lot are calling them Berch A.
Good grief .
Why not just call them Plane Larch type B for all that means.
Yes the larch is a type of tree for any of you who know Monty Python .
If anyone out there has ever handled any amount of real smocks you all know that the Pink is a poor and very crude copy.
To even do a lab test is a waste of time .
As regards to thread count , well that is a waste of time as an operator only has to hit the gas on the machine to make the stitch larger or lay of the gas to make the stitch tighter together.
Why is the HB on the pockets always weird ???
Owen AKA Kammo man